Controversial Issues, Oneness Pentecostalism, Religious Movements

Bishop T. D. Jakes says he now embraces the Trinity Doctrine: T. D. Jakes was interviewed by pastor Mark Driscoll and pastor James MacDonald on January 27, 2012 at Harvest Bible Chapel

Recently I was informed that Bishop T. D. Jakes, pastor of the Potters House Church was interviewed by pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church and pastor James MacDonald of Harvest Bible Chapel in regards to him now embracing the Trinity Doctrine. This was a live interview with T. D. Jakes, Mark Driscoll, and James MacDonald that took place on January 27, 2012 at Harvest Bible Chapel in Illinois at the second annual Elephant Room. (check out Baptist Press/ affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=37054)

Reading the T. D. Jakes interview was very interesting to me since for many years Bishop T. D. Jakes has been labeled a heretic, because he was one who taught and believed in the heresy of Modalism or Oneness Pentecostalism. In fact at Berean Perspective we have two articles that have been written dealing with what T. D. Jakes has said he believes concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. T. D. Jakes denies the doctrine of the Trinity and he affirmed the Oneness perspective, thus we labeled him as being in the heresy of Modalism. (Oneness Pentecostalism) We believe that Modalism (Oneness Pentecostalism, Jesus Only, United Pentecostal Church International, UPCI) is a false teaching and has many false doctrines. (check out Oneness Pentecostalism) Now, after reading what was posted from the Baptist Press post (affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention) I am somewhat encouraged and at the same time still not at ease with what T. D. Jakes believes concerning the Trinity Doctrine.

I respect both pastor Mark Driscoll and pastor James MacDonald and I am glad that they had this opportunity to talk with T. D. Jakes. But if I would have been involved somehow in that discussion I would have asked some more direct questions to get to the real meat of this issue concerning the Trinity Doctrine and the Gospel with T. D. Jakes.

I would have asked Bishop T. D. Jakes the following:

  1. When you say you now embrace the doctrine of the Trinity as being three persons, does that mean the Father and the Son are distinct personages?
  2. When you say you believe in one God whom is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, do you believe that in heaven Jesus Christ and the Father will be seen as Revelation 3:21 and Revelation 5:8 indicates?
  3. According to what Jesus taught in John 17:5 in praying to the Father that He was going to be glorified and be with the Father again before the world was, do you believe that Jesus Christ (the personage) existed with the Father (the personage) from eternity?
  4. According to Oneness Pentecostalism (Oneness theology/ Modalism) a person is to be baptized in the name of Jesus only, not in the name of the Father, name of the Son, (name of Jesus) and the name the Holy Spirit. If you were to baptize someone how would you baptize them?
  5. According to Oneness Pentecostalism one must be water baptized in Jesus name only and speak in tongues for the forgiveness of sins. What do you believe now?
  6. You said you were saved in a Oneness Pentecostal Church. Now, knowing that the Oneness Pentecostal Church has doctrines that teach another version of whom Jesus is in comparison to the Trinitarian understanding…and knowing that Oneness Pentecostalism teaches another gospel message in comparison to the true gospel of Jesus Christ, then how could you have been saved back then with believing in another Jesus and another gospel?
  7. You said basically that Oneness theology and Trinitarian theology are the same, that we are saying the same things. How can you say that honestly?

“T.D. Jakes wants to have both Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals, who are Unitarian Modalists, classified as brothers in Christ at the same time. But you cannot affirm both are in the realm of truth without removing the Trinity as a fundamental basis of the Christian faith. You cannot have both beliefs at the same time: either God is both three and one (as Trinitarians believe and Unitarians deny) or God is only one (as Unitarians like Oneness Pentecostals believe and Trinitarians deny). There is no bridging this divide without losing the Trinity itself, for He is the God we worship.” (Malcolm Yarnell)

I agree with Malcolm Yarnell that T. D. Jakes is wrong in his view that Trinitarians and Oneness Pentecostals are essentially the same. Malcolm Yarnell gave many good points in regards to his perspective with what T. D. Jakes shared in regards to his beliefs, with things that good and things that are still false. One thing for sure is this interview will be of much interest in the years to come and to see what transpires with T. D. Jakes and various Christian churches and affiliations, and within the Southern Baptist Convention. Along with that how will T. D. Jakes be treated by the Oneness Pentecostal churches and affiliations?

Does T. D. Jakes believe in the Trinity Doctrine? Does T. D. Jakes deny the Trinity Doctrine?  Or is T. D. Jakes using Trinitarian wording with Oneness beliefs?  I will be taking some time to think more about what I have read from the interview with T. D. Jakes and his recent changes in what he now says he believes concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. As I do some more research and examination I will update more here. You are welcome to share your thoughts from checking the interview with T.D. Jakes, Mark Driscoll, and James MacDonald.

Discussion

37 thoughts on “Bishop T. D. Jakes says he now embraces the Trinity Doctrine: T. D. Jakes was interviewed by pastor Mark Driscoll and pastor James MacDonald on January 27, 2012 at Harvest Bible Chapel

  1. A former Oneness person believes T. D. Jakes is not being honest and is misleading people on what he has said. Check out this link http://grbcav.org/2012/01/er2-qa-with-a-former-oneness-pastor/

    I know people are this this post, any comments out there?

    Posted by Kelly Powers | January 30, 2012, 8:03 PM
  2. Sir I respect your sincere faith in Christianity and your desire to defend what you perceive to be true.

    But you are drastically incorrect to call Oneness Pentecostals Unitarians. We affirm the Deity of Jesus even more emphasized than Trinitarians and we do NOT deny the existence of the Father as many Trinitarians accuse. You also need to check your definition of Modalism.

    I highly recommend I AM: a Oneness Pentecostal Theology for a proper definition of the Oneness Pentecostal’s belief on God. Or will you just keep slandering a people you know nothing about?

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 4, 2012, 10:15 PM
  3. Hello Jeremy, thanks for coming here and sharing some comments.

    I did not label Oneness being the same as Unitarianism, that was a quote I posted from Malcom Yarnell. I would agree with you, they are not the same. However, I do not agree that Oneness emphasizes the Deity of Jesus Christ more than Trinitarianism.

    As to Modalism, check my definition? How about you check http://www.rootedinchrist.org/2008/01/01/what-do-oneness-pentecostals-believe-official-doctrines-teachings-of-the-upci/ and you let me know if I got something wrong there on what Oneness theology is.

    Can you please explain how we are slandering people?

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 4, 2012, 11:38 PM
  4. It is slander because you present us as heretics. The link you gave made a few incorrect assessments.

    One: we do not say you must speak in tongues in order to be saved. Never is the emphasis on tongues alone alright or sound in our faith. The emphasis would be the same as if one were to say that in order to fulfill all righteousness Jesus would need to have had the dove land upon His shoulder. The correct manner to have presented that would be to say that He was getting baptized to fulfill all righteousness and the dove landing was of consequence. I am not using this analogy to argue necessity of baptism at this time but am just an on the fly example.

    Second we do not state any salvation apart from the grace through faith in Jesus. We do not work to be saved or even to stay saved but we work BECAUSE we are saved.

    But like with many, that comment is a cheap shot at our doctrine of what it means to be justified and sanctified and born again. We do not say that you do any work to be saved.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 5, 2012, 8:31 AM
  5. One thing does not make sense. The baptismal formula, baptizing ‘in the name of Jesus’, is the only formula used in the Apostles’ writings. These men were taught by, and spent time with Jesus himself. (excluding Paul, of course.) And yet, we are told that the men taught directly by Jesus were WRONG, and 2,000 years later, individuals such as yourself got it RIGHT.

    Posted by Greg Laile | February 6, 2012, 7:10 PM
  6. Hello Jeremy,

    You said: “One: we do not say you must speak in tongues in order to be saved. Never is the emphasis on tongues alone alright or sound in our faith”

    Where did I say “alone” in regards to tongues? Now, what I wrote in this post was a few years ago and I see the links have changed but what I shared was accurate. I will share what I found currently at the UPCI official site.

    quote: “Peter, with the support of the other apostles, gave a precise, complete, and unequivocal answer: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38). As this verse shows, we respond to the gospel, obey the gospel, or apply the gospel to our lives by repentance from sin (death to sin), water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ (burial with Christ), and receiving the Holy Spirit (new life in Christ)” http://www.upci.org/about-us/beliefs/21-about-us/beliefs/91

    quote: To become a subject in the kingdom of God, Jesus said a person must be “born again,” or “born of water and of the Spirit” (John 3:3-5). The birth of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit are synonymous terms…The new birth, consisting of water and Spirit, was never set forth as being optional or unessential. “Ye must be born again” are the words of Jesus in John 3:7. Until a person is born of the Spirit, he cannot be called a “son” of God.” http://www.upci.org/resources/instructional-devotional-leadership/84-the-gift-of-the-holy-ghost

    quote: The baptism of the Holy Ghost is the birth of the Spirit (John 3:5). This spiritual baptism is necessary to put someone into the kingdom of God (God’s church, the bride of Christ) and is evidenced by speaking in other tongues (other languages) as the Spirit of God give utterance.” http://www.upci.org/resources/instructional-devotional-leadership/78-the-apostles-doctrine

    Jeremy according to the UPCI official site being born again a person must speak in tongues, that is not optional, it is not unessential but essential. Now maybe you are not of the UPCI and maybe you will reject their statements, if that is the case, could you please provide for me a link/resource for which church you attend and what you believe in regards to doctrines.

    You said: “Second we do not state any salvation apart from the grace through faith in Jesus. We do not work to be saved or even to stay saved but we work BECAUSE we are saved.”

    Can you honestly tell me if a person who says they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the Son of God, God come in the flesh sent from the Father, that they put all their trust in Him for His death and shed blood on the cross, and that He rose from the dead proving He is the Messiah, and that they choose to follow Him…BUT they never speak in tongues and they are not baptized in the name of Jesus only but in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, and they at times fall into temptation and sin, that they are born again and saved in Christ?

    I have not met a Oneness Pentecostal who has said yes that person is saved in Christ with those beliefs and life. You maybe someone different, I cannot speak for you, but I can speak from what I have learned in my life in talking with people and those whom are ex Oneness Pentecostals.

    So Jeremy. You said I was a slander cause I according to you have stated things wrongly on what you believe. I would like for you to prove to me what I have shared is wrong.

    Jeremy, when I have talked with those who claim to be Oneness and they say to be because I believe in the Tri-Unity of God being three personages (not Jesus in different modes) and that I am a heretic and false believer, would that be considered slanderous on their part? When they have told me that I do not believe in the necessity of tongues for being born again that I am not saved, are they slandering me?

    Jeremy, the reason I shared the above on what I have been accused of is for you to understand there are many different perspectives and beliefs out there, and many people take a very strong stand on certain things. I try my best to respect people but I want you to know that many things that I have at this site is because I was told by them (various religious groups) that I was not saved and that I was the heretic in so many words. What I have done in my life, at least the last 20 something years is seek the Lord and His Word for truth in regards to what it really means to be a Christian and what false doctrines and movements there are out there leading people astray. I hope you can at least understand my heart in that.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 6, 2012, 10:07 PM
  7. Hello Greg, welcome here to our site. Thank you for taking the time to share a comment with us.

    You said: “One thing does not make sense. The baptismal formula, baptizing ‘in the name of Jesus’, is the only formula used in the Apostles’ writings. These men were taught by, and spent time with Jesus himself. (excluding Paul, of course.) And yet, we are told that the men taught directly by Jesus were WRONG, and 2,000 years later, individuals such as yourself got it RIGHT.”

    I agree that when we read in the book of Acts it states that people were baptized in Jesus name. However, I do not read anywhere where we are told that this was the only way in order for people to do it and be saved. The real issue you are presenting, at least what I believe you are addressing is the topic of the Trinity doctrine. May I ask you just a few questions?

    Question 1 – When Jesus was baptized in Matthew 3:16-17, who spoke from heaven to Jesus? Whom descended upon Jesus? If God is only 1 in person, and Jesus was God in the flesh on the earth, who was the voice from heaven and the one whom descended on Jesus?

    Question 2 – In John 17:5 Jesus speaking to the Father, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (NASB) Would you agree that Jesus was alive and well with the Father before the world was? Was Jesus a distinct person with the Father or a thought?

    Question 3 – According to Rev. 3:21 and Rev. 5:7 John the apostle sees in heaven the Father and Jesus distinct from one another. Was John wrong in what he wrote that the Father and Jesus are distinct persons?

    Thanks for reading and I look forward to reading your reply.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 6, 2012, 10:24 PM
  8. Kelly Powers, I do understand. Your heart beat is the same as mine. You are only defending what you know to be true. And as I pointed out I do respect that in you. I’m responding to this because you are doing exactly what you have had happen to you. You are presenting in so many words the Oneness people in a false light. Now at the end of the day each of us must take in to consideration of what we heard, because even the Pharisees knew of the coming of the Messiah, but when He came they hardened their hearts as I believe it was David who said “today if you do not harden your hearts…” in reference to our day since Jesus.

    I gave an analogy of what I meant concerning tongues. I go to a UPCI Bible College and of course a UPCI church. I am very much a Oneness Pentecostal. But if I were to ask any one Trinitarian to define for me what they believe about the trinity, I would get a wide array of comments. But sometimes it would be a little off on what the church they believe in actually teaches. After all not everyone is a theologian. And I KNOW that many churches especially those like Mark Driscoll’s are working to get a more common confession about the trinity among Trinitarians because they are not all saying the same thing. The same consideration must be given to Oneness people. I have heard Oneness Pentecostals say that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. And you are saying we say that. But that is not the true Oneness Pentecostal confession for either you or them.

    What I was saying about Jesus being baptized was that He didn’t get baptized so the dove could rest on His shoulder, but BECAUSE He was baptized the dove rested on His shoulder. The same thing with tongues. You are saying we believe you have to speak in tongues to be saved. No, we are saying you must receive the Holy Spirit, and when you do you will speak in tongues. Holy Spirit, not tongues is what we claim saves us.

    Now I’m not God. In the end God will judge. But my job is not to make exceptions or find loopholes, my job is to tell you what I was told and let God judge the rest. What about those who cannot find water to be baptized in? I see your point (and I know you didn’t say that, just a manner of speaking) and that frigthens me for them, but God is just and I’ll let Him handle that. But what about you? In the words of the Eunech what hinders you to be baptized in Jesus’ name? How about the man that has no tongue due to an accident or surgery? I don’t know, let God be the judge. What about those who all they knew was to confess that Jesus was the Lord of all and were trusting Him to save them but stranded on an island? We can speculate and even gain some ground.

    On the flip side many Evangelicals would face the issue of the man with no tongue and state he believed in his heart- Yet we could charge he never confessed with his mouth according to many Evangelical confessions who teach you must confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord in order to be saved (known as the sinner’s prayer).

    therefore YOU and WE have to trust that God knows what He’s doing and let Him be God for the exceptions if they exist. There are many people like Cornelius in the earth who don’t know of Jesus. Will you quickly place them all in hell if they die in ignorance? I think we should all be HOPEFUL universalists in that we all are hoping that somehow everyone would be saved in the end, but that is them. What about you? These exceptions are extreme and by no means the common case. But in spite of my wishful thinking I must take a stand to tell you what it means to BE saved, to GET saved, and WHAT that looks like and invite you to celebrate and even at times warn of the dangers.

    So what does Scripture say?

    Well all come to Scripture with our own bias and worldview, but the true theologian and Christian will for a moment lay those aside in order to gain the perspective of the one writing. I have a quick story for you to read in my own words but inspired by one of my professors.

    There were two men in a train. One was a professor at some highly credible University. The other was taking a nap.

    The Professor looked pleased having just read the novel through and wanted to strike up a conversation to boast about how much he knew about that book.

    So he said “Wow, that was an awesome book I just read!” The other man still napping barely moved. “I say sir, I think this book is a wonderful critique of modern day religions.

    The other man peeking from his sleep looked over and said “I’m not so sure that’s what it’s about.”

    The professor, shocked, said “No, I’ve studied these things and I know all the latest trends- you have to dig under the writing to get to this. You can be sure of it!”

    But the other awake now responded “Sir, with all due respect I don’t think that’s what that means.”

    Losing patience the professor screamed “Alright, tell me ONE good reason why I should believe anything you have to say about that book!”

    “Well” the other man said, “The only reason I can think of, is, I wrote it.”

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 7, 2012, 10:23 AM
  9. So, you do accept the legitimacy of the Oneness baptismal formula, which is taken directly from the original Apostles, whom Jesus HIMSELF taught. That us good. Now, do u believe the Father is really the father of Jesus, in the same sense of a human father and son relationship? or is it symbolic? Because a father is older than a son. Is the Father older than Jesus? and why not a familial reference to the Holy Spirit? Is he not related to the other 2?

    Posted by Greg Laile | February 7, 2012, 10:30 AM
  10. If you are willing to read the Scriptures without too much bias from creeds of centuries later or from your own reading or even the reading of your church affiliates, and just take the Apostles and their associates at their own confession you may be able to see what we are trying to saying. But if you think you have all the answers and like the Pharisees know Scripture inside and out, you may just miss the coming Messiah no matter your experience and knowledge.

    I have much more to write. But my people have been slandered and misrepresented (and we’ve done it from our end too of course) since we became a movement in North America in the early to mid 1900’s. I want you to hear from one their own what we believe articulated and expounded. Take it or leave it, but I pray the former and I wish for the best. I really do.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 7, 2012, 10:33 AM
  11. Jeremy I appreciate your comments. I will give more thorough reply later. I did give official statements so what I have shared is true. Also you didn’t reply to my questions, I hope you do.

    I’ll be back…

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 7, 2012, 10:43 AM
  12. Greg I asked 3 specific areas of questions, can you please give a reply to them?

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 7, 2012, 10:44 AM
  13. I will respond, but like you, I need some time to get back to it. I too will be back :)

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 7, 2012, 10:47 AM
  14. I do not want to get the discussion off track on our discussion of Oneness people. But you mentioned that we are Modalists. This is a true statement. But how you define modalism is important. For the sake mostly for other readers but also yours Mr. Powers, Modalism is an umbrella term which included a very large number of people. Three men stand out the most who were termed Modalists, but each are significantly different. They are Praxeus, Sabellius, and Noetus. It must also be noted that the majority of information available about them are from their religious opponents. Many Trinitarians have labeled us Sabellians. This is a very strong mislabel. First, I am suspicious of their opponents painting them in a wrong light, but assuming their opponents were correct, Sabellius did not present a normative confession for other Modalists and certainly not for modern Oneness Pentecostals. We do not believe that God became the Father, then became the Son, then became the Holy Spirit. This was what Sabellius’ opponents said he believed. We have NO writings from Sabellius. According to Tertullian, Praxean Modalism was the majority of believers in his day. If there was a representative Modalist back in that era, you may say that we are Praxean Modalists and not Sabellian Modalists. I would again strongly recommend you reading I AM: a Oneness Pentecostal Theology by Dr. David Norris.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 7, 2012, 3:15 PM
  15. You will have to tell me what I haven’t answered already, and by all means I will answer what I can. I don’t claim to know everything nor do I need to.

    EDITED from Admin: I will explain in my post.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 7, 2012, 9:57 PM
  16. Hi Jeremy. I want you to know that I have edited your post only because I do not want to jump all around on this and that, when we are still working on things, and you said you wanted to know what I asked. In your post you gave a whack load of stuff, which there was nothing offensive or rude, but it was going off on a new area and away from what we were addressing and you can bring that up later when we get to it. I have emailed what you posted so you can have it for yourself, just in case you did not have it saved. One thing I do request, is that you write your own answers and info, that way we can talk with each other, not at each other. Below is what I wrote previously that I wish for to reply to so I can know what you truly believe.

    quote from my previous post to you: Can you honestly tell me if a person who says they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the Son of God, God come in the flesh sent from the Father, that they put all their trust in Him for His death and shed blood on the cross, and that He rose from the dead proving He is the Messiah, and that they choose to follow Him…BUT they never speak in tongues and they are not baptized in the name of Jesus only but in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, and they at times fall into temptation and sin, that they are born again and saved in Christ?

    I have not met a Oneness Pentecostal who has said yes that person is saved in Christ with those beliefs and life. You maybe someone different, I cannot speak for you, but I can speak from what I have learned in my life in talking with people and those whom are ex Oneness Pentecostals.

    Could you read what I have asked over, and address these questions I have asked you on what you believe.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 7, 2012, 10:21 PM
  17. In my post about God being the judge, I think I gave at least a half answer to your first question. I wish everyone on earth were somehow saved in the end, but I do not make that call. We both agree (I assume) that not everyone is going to make it. And we know this is because it is not our standard. God is absolutely perfect and alone is that standard by which we are saved. We then both say that the only way that we could ever possibly attain to the righteousness of God is through Jesus. Without His sacrifice we are left to our own righteousness, which Isaiah says is like a dirty…well….cleansing rag…
    So we know we can’t save ourselves. But if Jesus is the only way to be righteous in God’s sight, then how does one accept that sacrifice to his or her own credit- how is it credited to him? in other words one can ask when is one Justified? I posted my essay because it gave a succinct answer to your questions in one swoop. But I admit it was overwhelming for the flow of this discussion. I cannot honestly answer in a short space and give you a justified answer so my response to this needs to be lengthy.

    depending on how you define justification and whether it is punctiliar (happening in one moment) or holistic (whole process/period of time) greatly defines what it means to be saved.

    For centuries Christians have stated that justification is punctiliar- for example the sinner’s prayer and similar Evangelical confessions. Meaning that when one has believed and confessed Jesus as Lord at that MOMENT he is justified- the sacrifice/blood of Jesus is applied to one’s life. If you view this dogmatically you will never be able to see anything else. All other definitions of justification would seem heretical.

    But Oneness Pentecostals view justification as holistic. There are reasons for this. But right here right now you have to confess that unless one is justified he cannot be saved. There are no unjustified persons already in Christ and in this age there is no one that is saved who is not in Christ. You know that if I tell you that that person who only believed ends up in hell it would make you shake your head and perhaps seemingly confirm your ideas of Oneness Pentecostalism. But we are put in hell by Evangelicals all day long. Go to any Lifeway or Christian book stores and you will see us labled among the damned, among the heretics. what I’m saying is that you and Evangelicals would do the same for us.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 7, 2012, 11:07 PM
  18. Jeremy, you still have not answered…

    if a person believes in the Trinity is 3 distinct persons the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, can a person be saved if this is wrong according to what you believe?

    If a person has not been water baptized in Jesus name only, but was water baptized in the name of the Father the Son and Holy Spirit (Trinity), can that person be saved if this is wrong according to what you believe?

    If a person does not speak in tongues, ever, has not the “evidence” that the UPCI states is necessary for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, can this person be saved according to what you believe if this is wrong?

    These are questions that divide what we both believe and I would like to have you answer these please. I allowed your last post cause you had some things in reference to what was asked, but you did not address the questions asked specifically. I am being more clear on my questions since I was not clear enough before.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 7, 2012, 11:14 PM
  19. I too haven’t made myself clear enough. I can give you no justification for someone who hasn’t been born again of Jesus’ name baptism and Holy Spirit which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. I would like to but IF there are any in this age saved who have not been born again according to ACTS 2:38 we do not have the authority to say so.

    Now to say that a belief in the trinity is of salvific value would absolutely matter IF it causes you to persecute Oneness adherents or refuse submitting to Jesus name baptism in favor of the Trinitarian baptism.

    But what I have personally witnessed and countless others is that the average belief among evangelicals and, especially Baptists, has many practical similarities.

    I would certainly condemn a Social Trinity advocation but when we talk economic trinity doctrine- I don’t honestly know for sure. But what I will always boil down to is I love Jesus and want to know Him better. So for me and I suggest for you, that what we are suggesting does in fact honor Him.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 8, 2012, 12:19 AM
  20. Hi Jeremy, I have been a little busy with these the last couple days. Thank you for your discussion thus far.

    You said: “I can give you no justification for someone who hasn’t been born again of Jesus’name baptism and Holy Spirit which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. I would like to but IF there are any in this age saved who have not been born again according to ACTS 2:38 we do not have the authority to say so.”

    Jeremy this really is the nuts and bolts of this discussion. It is based upon what you have been taught on Acts 2:38, Jesus name only baptism and speaking in tongues as evidence of baptism of the Spirit. This is what I have shared in our information online, in what I have read from other sites other than the UPCI site, and from personal interactions. Everything truly hinges on this perspective in the UPCI movement. So the answer would be, no I would not be considered saved and born again.

    You said: “Now to say that a belief in the trinity is of salvific value would absolutely matter IF it causes you to persecute Oneness adherents or refuse submitting to Jesus name baptism in favor of the Trinitarian baptism.”

    Since I refuse the Oneness Pentecostal view on the nature and identity of how God has been revealed (I don’t hold to the UPCI view on God), since I refuse to accept Jesus name only baptism for salvation, then you are saying this would be a salvation issue? Jeremy, what I have been sharing is that these are the things in which the UPCI states about what is required for salvation and those who do not hold to this view/belief thus in the end would not be saved.

    You said: “But what I have personally witnessed and countless others is that the average belief among evangelicals and, especially Baptists, has many practical similarities”

    If that is what you have witnessed, I cannot address that. I have been a Christian since 1977 and involved in various areas of ministry (teacher, missionary, lay pastor, elder, etc), in denominations such as Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God, Pentecostal Churches (not UPCI), Calvary Chapels, Non-denominationals, and others whom are Trinitarian is beliefs, and I have never once seen or heard a teaching that would say they were similar to UPCI views. One thing I can say is why the Cults can get an edge on many Christians on the Trinity is because in majority of churches they will say they believe in the Trinity but they hardly ever if ever preach or teach on it. So many believers are very confused on what they believe cause they are not being properly taught. This is something that i have witnessed first hand for many years and I am trying very much to change that with those whom God has put into my life.

    You said: “I would certainly condemn a Social Trinity advocation but when we talk economic trinity doctrine- I don’t honestly know for sure. But what I will always boil down to is I love Jesus and want to know Him better. So for me and I suggest for you, that what we are suggesting does in fact honor Him.”

    Social vs Economic, you lost me there friend. Many people say they love Jesus, many people say they truly believe in Jesus, but the Bible also says that many whom claim this are lost and Jesus never knew that at all. (Matthew. 7:13-23) I have a great friend once whom truly believed that she was a Christian, she was water baptized, believed the Bible, but then got caught in Mormonism cause she was informed by them that they are Christians too, they love Jesus too, so she joined and married a Mormon guy, and she has been a Mormon for 11 years now. She will tell me she loves Jesus, she is a Christian, but if you know anything about Mormonism (I hope you do) she is not a Christian, Mormonism is not truly Christian despite all their claims.

    Alright, I gotta go for now. I am sure we will continue our discussion. ttyl

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 10, 2012, 3:24 PM
  21. First of all for anyone to believe in the trinity you must twist the scriptures in order to satisfy your belief. The Bible over and over again declares God to be one. If you believe God is three distinct persons then you have to see him as three individual bodies or three individual spirits which automatically contradicts the Word of God. For the Bible says, “There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling” (Ephesians 4: 4). Now how can you deny what the Bible says and see three persons when the Word never uses the term three persons. When you read the Bible closely you will notice it says “For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 John 5: 7). But it NEVER says these are three persons. Read it for yourself. Every human is created with a spirit, soul, and body. Do we consider ourselves as three persons? Absolutely NOT!
    God manifested himself as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in the believer. Not three persons but three manifestations. The words manifest, manifested, and manifestations are all biblical terms used to explain the nature of God, but NEVER is the term three persons used in the Bible to explain the nature God.
    The Protestant Church derived the term trinity from the Catholic Church and not from the Bible. History informs us that the trinity was adopted and ratified at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. This was never a doctrine taught by the apostles and prophets but rather a man made doctrine which have derailed the souls of millions upon millions. Likewise the doctrines of infant baptism, purgatory, Mary being the Mother of God and several more doctrines have been concocted by men of corrupt minds.
    We owe it to God to return to the Holy Scriptures and search the Word for ourselves. Today trinitarians have spoken out saying those whose believe in the oneness of God are a cult. We are not a cult, but believe the Bible as it is written without the influence of the so-called church fathers.
    All of the early so called-church fathers believed and preached the trinity doctrine. But notice once again that the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ never preached such a doctrine.
    Trinitarians will use Genesis 1: 26 which says, “And God said, Let us make man in our image” yet the very next verse says, “So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE” (Genesis 1: 27). Again trinitarians will use this verse, “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil” (Genesis 3: 22). God is not plural in persons but in attributes and characteristics. God is a singular being, he said “I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside ME” (Isaiah 45: 5). Again God said, “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside ME there is no saviour” (Isaiah 43: 11). There are more instances where God used the term “I and Me” than the term “US” which describes the plurality of his attributes and characteristics. God, who is Jesus Christ used the term “I AM” over and over again, saying “I AM THAT I AM,” “I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST,” I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE,” I AM THE LIVING WATER,” I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING,” I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA,” I AM THE TRUE VINE.” Just these few definitions of God indicates there is but One (not three distinct persons).
    We could use many more instances where the term “I AM” is spoken to declare the oneness of God. If any man lack wisdom let him ask of God. GOD IS ONE and not three persons!

    Posted by D. Hall | February 10, 2012, 5:22 PM
  22. Yeah I know what Mormonism is. There are some great people in Mormonism today. But their faith, no matter how they want to tell it has little to do with Scripture. Their faith is not Christian at all.

    I am just as much against Mormonism and the Jehovah’s Witness faiths as you are.

    I appreciate you not harshly condemning me personally. My post was not meant to be harsh at all either, just straight to the point on what it means if what I’m saying is correct. I do not want anyone in the lake of fire, and my assessment was not intentionally personal though it ends up being because what I’m against you believe; and vise versa. But I want it to be known to the reader and you too, that what I’m saying is not intended to be a personal attack, and you’ve shown yourself to uphold the same towards me. So thank you.

    What I was suggesting about similar beliefs was related only to our views on God. From my exprience 90% of the conversation is in agreement until we get to whether we define Him in three persons or one. When I say person I mean the man Christ whom we say all of God indwells. When I have explained what I believe they were either very much set against it or more often they claimed to believe essentially the same thing. I have more to type. Will be back later as well

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 10, 2012, 6:34 PM
  23. I read in the dialogue with TD Jakes where I believe it was James MacDonald that said when we are with Christ, He will be the only one we will see on the throne. I completely agree. And his advocates might argue this is because it was only the Son who was incarnated. Some neo-Trinitarians would take it a step further and say that all of the trinity is in Christ on the throne, but this is by no means a common confession from among Evangelicals in my own exprience.

    Our confession is simpler. We set our eyes on what the Jews thought. We don’t look to creeds centuries after the cross. We are very extremely back-to-the-Bible adherents. We are simply saying that when we read the Shema (Deut. 6 in particular), we understand it as the Jews did. That YHWH was Israel’s God ALONE. A proper understanding doesn’t tell us that the word echad meaning one is ‘one’ in the sense that Oneness advocates often say ‘one,’ but rather that YHWH is God alone. This doesn’t disprove the trinity, but it certainly cannot be stretched to mean a trinity either.

    This same YHWH in all His fullness became a man. We both call this the incarnation and Immanuel. This child that was born the Messiah was not ONLY a child, Isaiah says, He was the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace. He was the same suffering servant in the 52nd and 53rd chapter. John 12:41 alludes to the vision Isaiah saw when Isaiah saw YHWH on the throne with His throne filling the temple and John applied it to Jesus!

    But focus in on this that we call Incarnation. John 14:9-10 Phillip told the Lord show us the Father and it will suffice us. And to this Jesus answered “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not know me Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own authority but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.” Now I do not know how one could make this any clearer except to say “I am the Father.”

    But Jesus was not there to boast about His Godliness as Phillipians tells us. in this hymn Paul says “But made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.” He did not seek Divine perrogatives. He was not even there totting that He was the Messiah though He did tell them He was. I have N. T. Wright to back me up on that one as well (even though I know for sure he is not Oneness). Jesus did not want to give the wrong picture. He could easily have shown Himself to be God and Israel would have quickly followed Him. But He was not there to coerce allegiance, but to allow them to come to Him. He concealed His identity to a large extent but to a few because it would have put the focus in the wrong place. So God was in the man named Jesus. kind of a taste of our belief.

    I am not trying to overload you so I will give you time to express your opinion.

    Posted by Jeremy Castellanos | February 10, 2012, 7:27 PM
  24. Jeremy and D.Hall:

    Thanks for sharing your posts, I have not posted any replies yet to what you recently posted, but I hope to tomorrow. I would ask that you allow me to give a reply to what you have shared before you post any new ones. Though I do not agree with what you guys have shared, I thank you for taking the time to dialogue here. My goal as I would hope yours is to, is to truly believe and follow what the Scriptures teach in truth.

    See you soon…

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 11, 2012, 2:23 PM
  25. On Eph 4:4, I believe it’s refering to the body of believers and the different gifts (I Cor 12: 4-13). There are so many verses that seem to confirm the Trinity, but when you look at the meanings of the original Greek words, it seems to lead you more toward God being one, showing Himself in three different ways or persons. John 10:29-…My Father is greater than all, John 14:28- … the Father is greater than I,Phil 2:6-…did not reguard equality with God…, Matt 24:36-nor the Son, but the Father, John 10:30- I and the Father are one.One- (neuter) a unity; or one essence
    In Phil 2:6-8, the word for “one” is Greek is hen, it does not mean one person but one essence, power and quality. He and His Father are one- in power, design, action, agreement and essence. They are not one person, but two persons and yet both of them are God. The Lord Jesus was equal to the Father as touching His Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Ref. notes on Phil 2:6-8 in the Hebrew and Greek keyword study Bible. John 1:1- In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. God is a spirit- Gen1:2, Jesus was the Word that became flesh. God the Father, God the Son , God the Holy Spirit were never created. They have always been. God knows everything,and can be present everywhere . Ps 139:1-10. So, God can be the Spirit decending, in the flesh as Jesus, and in heaven as well. The more I study, the more I lean towards God being one, but showing Himself in three persons.

    Posted by Anonymous | February 15, 2012, 9:54 AM
  26. Sorry , about the anonymous comment above. I was typing, meant to hit backspace and hit enter. I didnt think it had gone through.

    Posted by Donna 1op | February 15, 2012, 9:24 PM
  27. Hey guys, sorry I just have not been here lately, I will be soon. I appreciate you waiting, that shows something.

    Donna, thanks for sharing.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 18, 2012, 10:13 PM
  28. I am really sorry for not replying still. If you guys are still out there, which I hope you are, I will get a reply in a few days, at least try very hard to. I do appreciate your willingness to dialogue.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 28, 2012, 10:03 PM
  29. HELLO ALL…. I have read post after post about the “AGE OLD TRINITY vs ONENESS DEBATE” I would if possible like to give in my opinion according to my understanding THE BIBLICAL FORMULA FOR SALVATION….

    I am no pastor or teacher just a layman student of GODS WORD…

    FIRST MY DOCTRINAL POSITION……. ” Hear O ISREAL, the LORD our GOD is one LORD”
    One LORD one FAITH one BAPTISM one GOD and FATHER of us all…

    NOW BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE YOU, TONGUES does not save you….. THE GRACE OF GOD AND THE SHEDDING OF HIS BLOOD SAVES YOU….

    The bible says without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin…

    For by grace are you SAVED through FAITH, NOT OF WORKS it is the GIFT of GOD, lest any man should boast…

    JESUS CHRIST IS/WAS our ATTONEMENT/SACRIFICE… WE are saved by his grace through the shedding of his blood by acceptance of his sacrifice through the acknowledgement of our faith…

    is JESUS the son of GOD- YES in his HUMANITY

    is JESUS CHRIST THE FATHER- YES in his REALATIONSHIP to MANKIND as the creator of the world/universe

    is JESUS CHRIST THE HOLY SPIRIT – YES as HE sends the COMFORTER /SPIRIT and actually physically indwells in the body of believers empowering them to live a life above sin…

    JEHOVAH ( the father) said to abraham “I AM THAT I AM ”

    JESUS ( THE SON) said BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS I AM…

    JEHOVAH (THE FATHER) said i am alpha and omega the beginning and the end the first and the last
    JESUS ( the SON) said I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA THE BEGINNING AND THE END the first and the last

    CONTRADICTION? COINCIDENCE? or same BEING ?

    now addressing baptism, is JESUS ONLY FORMULA more or less correct than the FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT FORMULA…….. NO NO NO, BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE BUT CHRIST DOES….

    wether you had JESUS NAME or NAME of father son and holy spirit FORMULA applied over you means NOTHING if you have no relationship with JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR… personally if your HEART aint RIGHT before him you JUST GOT WETT…

    Baptism is an act of OBEDIENCE to the scripture, disobedience is sin… Baptism again does not save you, but the grace of GOD saves through the HUMAN BLOOD OF CHRIST..

    Jesus Christ is the visible form of the invisible GOD…

    TONGUES is NOT the infilling of the holy ghost IT IS ONLY 1 EVIDENCE that you have been filled with the SPIRIT. how you live your life is also EVIDENCE if you are filled with the spirit of GOD….

    Now there is so much more i could use to prove 1 or the other argument

    genesis 1
    John 1 etc etc etc

    bible says JESUS SITS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER ( this appears here there is 2 ) I say it doesnt prove this point one way or the other… as the scripture ALSO says…..

    THERE IS ONLY 1 WHO SITS UPON THE THRONE AND IT IS HIM WHO WAS SLAIN FOR THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD… ( THIS IS VERY CLEAR IT IS JESUS)

    CONTRADICTION? NO OUR LIMITED UNDERSTANDING…

    jesus christ is gods son as touching his humanity,Jesus Christ is God as touching his diety, he has a dual nature thus being GOD and MAN at the same time..

    SALVATION is a FREE gift , given to MANKIND if they will ACCEPT IT…. You RECIEVE it Through your FAITH in Christ.

    NOW as far as the upci is concerned they are a DENOMINATIONAL ORGINIZATION, organizations are formed by man , man is fallible ( god is infallible) the upci DOES NOT SAVE YOUR SOUL JESUS CHRIST DOES…

    I believe in one GOD, ( not 3 seperate beings forming 1 god) but 1 god REVEALING HIMSELF TO MANKIND as father son and spirit….

    i hope this helps… thank you RORY FRANKS port alberni BRITISH COLUMBIA CANADA

    Posted by Rory Franks | September 4, 2012, 12:54 AM
  30. i just want to say that the gospel is this- “for GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” if you want to believe additionally that Jesus Christ is also GOD, then go right ahead. that is not a salvation issue as far as the bible seems to be concerned, it is your confusion w/ the scriptures. however, if you want to preach a different gospel changing John 3:16 to “for God so loved the world that He came here and died for our sins…” you are absolutely wrong.

    you cannot incorporate your beliefs, theories, conjecturing into Jesus’s gospel to be preached. keep it to yourself, express it plainly as your view and what you feel you found in scripture as apostle paul did in his epistles. i am saved and do not share that view that Jesus Christ is GOD the Father. According to 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, in the end, He isnt b/c He delivers the kingdom up to GOD the Father. so, believe what you want, that He was black, that He was tall and skinny, that He is also GOD etc but you cannot preach it as the gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation period.

    Posted by Danielle | September 18, 2012, 5:50 PM
  31. Hi everyone I just want to sat that Jesus is God. The scriptures declares it St. John Chapter 1 (1 -14)
    in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

    9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,[b] and his own people[c] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God
    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    So if God is the word and the word was made flesh that mean that Jesus is God. And yes you have to be baptist in Jesus Name and feel with the Holy Ghost and living right that is how you make it to Heaven. Why risk your soul? That is the only way that God’s Disciple baptize because the were taught how to by Jesus himself and when Paul came onto the scene he did the same thing. The blood means the water when you go down in his name it washes away sins.

    As many have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27

    Posted by Carsandra Beasley | February 21, 2013, 1:38 PM
  32. On Eph 4:4, I believe it’s refering to the body of believers and the different gifts (I Cor 12: 4-13). There are so many verses that seem to confirm the Trinity, but when you look at the meanings of the original Greek words, it seems to lead you more toward God being one, showing Himself in three different ways or persons. John 10:29-…My Father is greater than all, John 14:28- … the Father is greater than I,Phil 2:6-…did not reguard equality with God…, Matt 24:36-nor the Son, but the Father, John 10:30- I and the Father are one.One- (neuter) a unity; or one essence
    In Phil 2:6-8, the word for “one” is Greek is hen, it does not mean one person but one essence, power and quality. He and His Father are one- in power, design, action, agreement and essence. They are not one person, but two persons and yet both of them are God. The Lord Jesus was equal to the Father as touching His Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. Ref. notes on Phil 2:6-8 in the Hebrew and Greek keyword study Bible. John 1:1- In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. God is a spirit- Gen1:2, Jesus was the Word that became flesh. God the Father, God the Son , God the Holy Spirit were never created. They have always been. God knows everything,and can be present everywhere . Ps 139:1-10. So, God can be the Spirit decending, in the flesh as Jesus, and in heaven as well. The more I study, the more I lean towards God being one, but showing Himself in three persons. posted by Donna.

    Hello, Donna I wanted to ask you a question on your nderstanding of the word essence because by deffinetion the word means attribute – an inherent characteristic not person. and if it leads to any solid understanding it would and could only be ONEness not Trinity- sence trinity belief is three seprate beings definition of person-human, individual a seprate being which makes three god’s in trinity, you cna’t have it both way’s it is either 3 or 1.
    brother Hall explained from the very begging of this thread and he has over explained if any man lack wisdom please ask GOD.AT

    Posted by matrillo07@yahoo.com | January 9, 2014, 12:50 PM
  33. Well I guess on judgement day we will all see if Johns Revelation was correct when he said, “he that sat on the throne was one.” I guess you will call John a heretic to his face and tell God he got it all wrong too. I am sure you won’t allow this to hit the web. But I do pray for you and all the other heretics associated with you in Jesus’ name!

    Posted by Mark Cross | February 23, 2014, 7:31 AM
  34. 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness Gen. 1

    24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven Gen. 19

    12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” Isaiah 48

    13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you John 16

    14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.2 Cor. 13

    21 `He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev. 3

    Hi Mark. John was correct, but there is more information in the Bible on whom God has been revealed as, thus showing 3 personages. Thanks for your prayer, I would encourage you to re-examine how God has been revealed as a unity, not as a singularity. Have a good day and thanks for sharing.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 23, 2014, 8:56 AM
  35. It’s important to understand that while Jesus was alive, you could be saved by faith alone (thief on the cross). The thief was the last person to be saved by faith alone. The plan of salvation after Jesus died (acts 2:38) was enforced after the death of the testator, only then can a testament be enforced (Hebrews 9:15,16,17). Jesus was god in the flesh (described as the only begotten son) because he was god and man, formed by the word of God entered this world through Mary’s womb. we aren’t born sons of god, we came from Adam, formed from dust. Therefore we cannot be begotten sons of god, it was only one. Jesus calls himself both the son of man & the son of God, because he was god robed in flesh, which gave him the right (not to say he couldn’t, he just wanted it to be legal so to speak) to be here so we could know him and teach us love instead of just laws. (devil came as a robber St.John chapter 10). Making himself as a sacrifice, like in the old testament, for us. There is no more plans of salvation laid before mankind, only the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sins. Without his blood (blood of a human) there could not be atonement for our nor anyone in the old testament sins, nor the people walking the earth while Jesus was alive, unless he said so (because of coarse he was God) he’d say your faith has made u whole, as to say thanks for believing in me. After death though, everything changes. He told peter (the rock on which I will build my church) the plan of salvation, Peter told us. Acts 2:38 ……

    Posted by J.H. | February 23, 2014, 11:08 AM
  36. The good thief wasn’t saved by faith alone. The good thief repented. Repentance is a work.

    Posted by Jo | April 24, 2014, 8:27 PM
  37. If we search deeply the true history, the Council of Nicea that formulated Trinity doctrine were only attended by false christians who collaborate with the Emperor of Rome, even the christian bishop of Rome during that time did not attend the said Council. Same Council that formulated a laws of hatred against the Jews. Only false Christians who heed the call of Emperor Constantine for reconciliation by an order of his Edict of Milan, while the true Christians were continue hiding together with the Christian Jews who were baptized in Jesus name. Trinity doctrine cannot be trusted, formulated by false christians go in hand as anti-semitism in the past.

    Posted by marcial taguic | May 12, 2014, 7:05 PM

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