Hyper Dispensationalism, Religious Movements

Why Be Concerned With Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

Some people are not aware of the dangers of this movement, and the purpose of this information is to share why people need to be concerned with Mid Acts Dispensationalism.

What do I mean by Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

There are different groups that people label Mid Acts Dispensationalism and I want to make it clear on who I am addressing.  In this context when I say Mid Acts Dispensationalism I am referring to those who call themselves “Bereans, Mid Acts Dispensationalists, Pauline followers, Grace believers, right dividers”, among other descriptions.  This movement has been around some 100 years or so and not so much known, but it is growing more and more.  When examining their theology there are some dangers that need to be addressed, and not all of them have all of these exact beliefs, but for the most part most they do.

Below are some of those that I have had interactions with and their views below.

Terry McLean with discerningthetimespushing.com
Don Cote with right divider.org (no longer online)
Mark Mumma with midactsdispensationalism.com
Jim Brackin trustingthelord.com/About.html

Mid Acts Dispensationalists beliefs?

There are many things concerning Mid Acts Dispensationalism beliefs and teachings to be on the look out for.  The following information will be some of the basic beliefs and doctrines of those who identify themselves as Mid Acts Dispensational believers.

    1. Many believe that the only true authorized English version of the Bible is the King James Bible.  That means they believe that all other English translations either have translational errors or theological errors because of how they view the King James Bible.  The problem with this is that there are various King James editions and most of them do not know which one they are clinging to or which one is the most accurate.  Majority of those in this movement seem to give the opinion that those who do not use the King James are being corrupted with false doctrines and being led astray by the devil.  (There are some who prefer other English Translations)
    2. They believe that the books written by the Apostle Paul are solely for the body of Christ to live by and for doctrine.  They go on to say that all other books are for the body of Christ for informative reasons but not for doctrine, which gets scary in some areas.  Those of this movement word it this way, “All of the Bible is for us but not all of the Bible is written to us.”  This is some crafty wording and many people have been deceived into believing un-Biblical doctrines through inaccurate ways of interpretation.
    3. They believe that the books of Paul are the only books that teach salvation is by grace through faith in Christ for salvation.  They believe that all of the other books of the Bible teach a works salvation, including the other books in the New Testament.
    4. They believe that all other books of the Bible other than the ones Paul wrote are for the Jews and Jewish Christians.  Along with that they go on to teach that the book of Hebrews, James, epistles of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation are all books for Jewish Christians and that the information within them is dealing solely with the Great Tribulation.
    5. They believe that they are to follow Paul, for Paul was the first one to preach the true gospel message for salvation in Christ by faith alone.  They go on to teach that Jesus and the Apostles before Paul taught a works gospel message for salvation, and that it was not until Paul became a Christian that the body of Christ began and the message of grace was being taught.
    6. They believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer for today.  They believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 teaches with the completion of the Bible the gifts are no longer needed for the body of Christ and for the world.
    7. They believe the body of Christ is not to be partaking of the Lord’s Supper because that was for the Jewish Christians and is yet for the future with God’s earthly kingdom.  They teach that this was not for the body of Christ and is not for us today.
    8. They separate Jewish Christians from the body of Christ and make them two different groups.
    9. They teach that Jewish Christians and believers from the Old Testament will be reigning on the earth through God’s kingdom program and the body of Christ will be living forever in heaven.
    10. There are some who teach that if you do not hold to these teachings (Mid Acts Beliefs) you truly are not a Christian and have been deceived through Satan’s lies.

Dangers of Mid Acts Dispensationalism

When examining all of this information and putting the pieces together it is clear that this movement of itself is dangerous and some-what-cultic in theology.  Some of the main leaders of this movement are Cornelius R. Stam, J. C. O’Hair, and Charles Baker.  Some leaders within this movement have went to far with their exclusiveness and traditions in which they have twisted the gospel and are leading people away from knowing Jesus truly.

However, just so it is clear, there are people within this movement that could be saved and truly know Jesus Christ personally.  We are just wanting to inform people concerning various dangers within this movement and that we must be very careful of the spiritual diseases that have come from those who claim to be “rightly dividing”, but in truth are “spiritually deceived”.  If you have any questions on this information please contact us and we will do our best to answer your questions.

Discussion

70 thoughts on “Why Be Concerned With Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

  1. There are many today who say that they are Mid Acts Dispensationalists (MAD) but their teachings do not resemble the original teaching of Mid Acts Dispensationalism so I call thenm Neo-MAD.

    The person who is the the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism is Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918).
    James M. Gray (1852-1935), who served for thirty years as President of Moody Bible Institute and was one of the seven editors of the original Scofield Reference Bible, said the following about Anderson:

    “Sir Robert Anderson is in some respects the most remarkable of current writers on religious subjects, whether we consider his personal history or the range and character of his work…To sit at the feet of a man with such knowledge, mental power, courage and native wit, who is at the same time Spirit taught, is for the true Christian one of the greatest privileges.”

    Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) said that Anderson’s book Human Destiny is “the most valuable contribution on the subject I have seen.”

    Warren Wiersbe wrote the following about Anderson:

    “If you have never met Sir Robert Anderson, then you are about to embark on a thrilling voyage of discovery. If he is already one of your friends, then finding a new Anderson title, or meeting an old one, will bring joy to your heart and enlightenment to your mind.”

    Anderson taught that in all dispensations men are saved by grace through faith apart from works. He taught that the General Epistles (Hebrews through Jude) were written to members of the Body of Christ. Those in the Neo-MAD camp have departed from these truths.

    Anderson did teach that the present “dispensation of grace” did not start until after Paul was converted and hence that is how his followers aquired the name “Mid Acts Dispensationalists.”

    Posted by jerryshugart | March 4, 2012, 10:40 AM
  2. Hello Jerry, thanks for sharing here. I was not aware of Robert Anderson, so I did a quick look online. Most of what you said was found at wikipedia, which can mean it is true but I have also found things on wikipedia that are not always accurate. Nonetheless, thanks for sharing as I will do some more looking into what was shared here in time. My main reason for posting various articles on Mid Acts Dispensationalists is because I have come in contact with various MAD folks and they are very troubling with their ways of looking at Scripture and how they twist the Scriptures. I do not believe that they are all lost or unsaved, but I do believe the movement is leading people astray from the gospel message of Jesus Christ and I have talked with some of them who have shared with me that they were not saved being within that movement. Take care Jerry and thanks for taking the time to post here.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | March 4, 2012, 8:18 PM
  3. Let’s look at your argument to see if they have any merit.

    1) You start with KJO.
    That’s pretty telling since such a small group of people hold this view and many are not even dispensational, let alone mid-acts.

    2) The reason that mid-acts dispensationalists believe that “All of the Bible is for us but not all of the Bible is written to us.” is because that is what the Bible itself teaches. That is the heart of dispensational theology.
    Do you believe that every instruction in the Bible directed to you? Do you follow every command in the Bible? Do you obey Matthew 16:20? If not, why not?
    Paul makes this concept perfectly clear in Romans 15:4
    “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”
    Note that he says “for our learning” and not “for our obedience”.

    3) We most certainly to NOT teach that salvation ever came by works. But we do understand that the Bible teaches that there was a time (during the dispensation of the Law) that works were required as a demonstration of faith. Whereas, now, they are not.

    4) As just one example, James 1:1 (that’s the very first verse) specifies and limits HIS audience for HIS book.
    “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, _to the twelve tribes_ which are scattered abroad, greeting.”
    He is writing to ISRAEL. That’s not hard to see, but most simply ignore it.

    5) Firstly, you should note that is was PAUL himself that admonished believers to “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” I Corinthians 11:1
    And Paul was NOT talking about following Christ in His earthly ministry. Paul says that “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a _minister of the circumcision_ for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:” Romans 15:8
    Secondly, the Bible makes it clear that the Jewish followers of Christ during His earthly ministry were NOT called Christians at that time. They were called Jews.
    “And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. _And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch_.” Acts 11:26
    That is clear and simple Biblical information but the “Christian tradition” of our day denies it.

    6) Some remain, some were done away with. I’ll let you figure out which is which.

    7) Once again, you seem to target a very small group here (that you again do not identify). The “Lords Supper” is a perfectly valid remembrance for Christians today, but is most definitely NOT an ordinance as many claim.

    8) As does the Bible. These groups share many things in common (Christ in particular) but there are many differences as well.
    You should note that it is much easier to see similarities than differences, and yet differences are just as (if not many times, more) important.
    Are we under law? They most certainly were.

    9) Once again, this seems to be exactly what the Bible is teaching.
    Is not Israel God’s chosen people here on the earth? Does not Paul tell us that our place is in heaven? See Ephesians 1:10 where Paul describe the future when these two will be brought together: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”
    The “things in Christ” on earth are the people of Israel, the “things in Christ” in heaven is the Body of Christ.

    10) Another extreme generalization of some unidentified unnamed group. You really should name names instead of trying to broad-brush and condemn everyone that you disagree with. These types of “guilt by attempted association” tactics are not valid and shame on you for using these to try to condemn your fellow believers that you don’t agree with.

    May the Lord open your eyes to the scripture so that you, too, can understand the Mid-Acts position so clearly taught there. I hope that you find this useful.

    Posted by Jeff | October 24, 2012, 8:13 PM
  4. Dear Kelly,
    this was very useful thank you. I saw an advertisement for a recruiter position at Grace Bible College in Grand Rapids and I checked out what they believed. They stated they teach the Scriptures from a mid-Acts dispensational perspective. I know about dispensationalism and its false teaching, but I have never heard of mid-Acts dispensationalism. So, it was a huge blessing to read the information above. Needless to say, I didn’t apply for the job.
    Sincerely in Christ Jesus,
    Janet

    Posted by Janet | October 28, 2012, 11:57 PM
  5. Hello there Janet. Glad you found our site helpful in that area. I have not put up new articles in a while now concerning Mid Acts beliefs but I will do more in time. I have found they have some variations here and there but they are all pretty much the same on how they view the gospel according to Paul. If there is something that you find that you need some help on let me know if I don’t have it online right now.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | October 29, 2012, 3:23 PM
  6. Hello there Jeff. I am sorry this took a little longer to get to. I did have a reply but just before I posted it my computer went to a new page which I lost my info in response to you. In another comment you asked about having a dialog, to which that is fine. I will reply to what you have shared here and give further reasons for our perspective. From there we will see how things go.

    You said:

    1) You start with KJO.
    That’s pretty telling since such a small group of people hold this view and many are not even dispensational, let alone mid-acts.

    My reply:

    I stated that there were those of MidActs who did use other translations. From what I have seen in my personal encounters and online is that majority (pretty much all) used the KJV and fought hard for it. I realize there are others out there that do use NASB, ESV, NKJ etc. I was simply making an observation which is accurate.

    You said:

    2) The reason that mid-acts dispensationalists believe that “All of the Bible is for us but not all of the Bible is written to us.” is because that is what the Bible itself teaches. That is the heart of dispensational theology.
    Do you believe that every instruction in the Bible directed to you? Do you follow every command in the Bible? Do you obey Matthew 16:20? If not, why not?
    Paul makes this concept perfectly clear in Romans 15:4
    “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”
    Note that he says “for our learning” and not “for our obedience”.

    My reply:

    What I shared in my article is accurate. Would you say you as a Mid Acts believer that you can get any doctrine from any other books of the Bible that were not written by Paul? As I shared with those of the Mid Acts view they do read other books, and they do believe there is truth to be learned from there. But from what I have learned from personal encounters and online is that for doctrine their authority is Pauline, meaning only from what Paul wrote. Of course I don’t believe every instruction in the Bible applied directly to me (body of Christ/Christians), never said it did. My point was Christian doctrine for the body of Christ is not found in other books not written by Paul. I have also stated that not all Mid Acts followers believe “100” the same on everything. I have told numerous times and have read that Paul and Peter and Jesus preached different gospels, and the gospel that is to be followed in the body of Christ is only from what Paul wrote.

    So if you do believe that you can get doctrine from Peter, John, James, and the gospels to live by and for the Christian church, than that is great to hear.

    You said:

    3) We most certainly to NOT teach that salvation ever came by works. But we do understand that the Bible teaches that there was a time (during the dispensation of the Law) that works were required as a demonstration of faith. Whereas, now, they are not.

    My reply:

    Well you may mean what you said, but that is not the case with the Mid Acts folks I have come in contact with. I have heard from Mid Acts people that stated Peter preached a works gospel message, and that Jesus preached a works gospel message for salvation, and from them I have heard that the people in the OT were saved by their works as well. So if you are not one of those who hold that view than wonderful.

    You said:

    4) As just one example, James 1:1 (that’s the very first verse) specifies and limits HIS audience for HIS book.
    “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, _to the twelve tribes_ which are scattered abroad, greeting.”
    He is writing to ISRAEL. That’s not hard to see, but most simply ignore it.

    My reply:

    I would agree in James opening that he is writing to Jews whom are all over. But where does James say anywhere in his letter that in what he writes it is “only” for Jewish Christians whom are not within the body of Christ? Where does James say this is only to Israel? Where do we see James anywhere in the New Testament giving any type of indication concerning your claim? If you reject the books not written by Paul, and if you believe they were not to the body of Christ, please explain what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:15-18.

    Quote: “15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

    So those whom Peter wrote to Paul also wrote to. That is fascinating! Peter and Paul wrote to the same believers? Wow. That is what the Word states, which is contrary to Mid Acts view.

    You said:

    5) Firstly, you should note that is was PAUL himself that admonished believers to “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” I Corinthians 11:1
    And Paul was NOT talking about following Christ in His earthly ministry. Paul says that “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a _minister of the circumcision_ for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:” Romans 15:8
    Secondly, the Bible makes it clear that the Jewish followers of Christ during His earthly ministry were NOT called Christians at that time. They were called Jews.
    “And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. _And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch_.” Acts 11:26
    That is clear and simple Biblical information but the “Christian tradition” of our day denies it.

    My reply:

    Let’s put that to the test. Let’s follow the example of Paul shall we!

    “21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14 KJ)

    “18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.” (Acts 21 KJ)

    “20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” (Acts 26 KJ)

    How did Paul view the doctrine of Christ?

    “8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians KJ)

    “3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.” (1 Timothy 6 KJ)

    “14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” (2 Timothy 3 KJ)

    Paul said anyone who taught contrary to Christ was deceptive, proud, one who has strife, and that we should avoid them. I wonder if Paul really meant that. Paul even said that the “holy scriptures” which in context would of been the Old Testament was able to lead someone in faith to salvation in Christ Jesus. Did Paul really mean that too?

    As to the the early followers of Jesus before Paul being just called “Jews” and not Christians, I have a few questions. Now I would agree that prior to Acts 11:26 we do not read anywhere anyone being called a Christian. However, I read no where that they were called Jews! Where does it state that those whom were Christ followers before the book of Acts 11:26 were called “Jews”? Now I see various places they being identified as multitudes, believers, disciples, brethren, those who belonged to the Way, the churches, the church, (Acts 4:32, 5:14, 6:1, 6:3, 9:2, 9:31, 11:22) So again, where does your claim that the Jewish followers of Jesus Christ before Acts 11:26 were called “Jews”?

    #6 you did not give anything that needs to be replied to.

    You said:

    7) Once again, you seem to target a very small group here (that you again do not identify). The “Lords Supper” is a perfectly valid remembrance for Christians today, but is most definitely NOT an ordinance as many claim.

    My reply:

    As I have shared not all who are of the Mid Acts view believe “exactly” the same. If you do believe that we as Christians are to be water baptized, to celebrate in remembrance the Lord’s Supper, that is great to hear. However, in my encounters with those of Mid Acts I have had them tell me that is not for the body of Christ and we do not follow those instructions today. My reply would be, where do we read that in what Paul wrote that water baptisms stopped? I read in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 in Paul addressing various divisions (one group even claiming to be followers of Paul hmmm) that he did water baptize some people, so he did practice that. In fact we read about that in Acts 16:30-34. We also see Paul giving instructions for the Lord’s Supper in 1 Corinthians 11:23-34. So who should we follow? Paul example of following Christ or what Mid Acts claims?

    You said:

    8) As does the Bible. These groups share many things in common (Christ in particular) but there are many differences as well.
    You should note that it is much easier to see similarities than differences, and yet differences are just as (if not many times, more) important.
    Are we under law? They most certainly were.

    My reply:

    According to Mid Acts teachings Peter and Jesus taught a different gospel from what Paul taught. According to Mid Acts view Jesus and Peter (apostles before Paul) taught that salvation was by faith and works, and was for the Jews. According to Mid Acts teachings it was not until Paul was saved that salvation was taught to be by grace in Christ by faith and now also for the Gentiles. So as I shared Mid Acts makes them two different groups, which is not accurate. Paul taught the same as Jesus and Peter, check out Gospel According to Paul According to Paul the message of Jesus was for Gentiles, in fact the New Covenant was not just for Jews but also for Gentiles, and this would of been for people before Paul becoming a Christian. Check out Paul Teaches the New Covenant

    You said:

    9) Once again, this seems to be exactly what the Bible is teaching.
    Is not Israel God’s chosen people here on the earth? Does not Paul tell us that our place is in heaven? See Ephesians 1:10 where Paul describe the future when these two will be brought together: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:”
    The “things in Christ” on earth are the people of Israel, the “things in Christ” in heaven is the Body of Christ.

    My reply:

    Here is what the Word of God says!

    “6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” (Acts 15 KJ)

    “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1 KJ)

    Peter preached Gentiles saved by faith, just as they were! Not by works! Peter wrote to the same Christians as Paul did, remember? (2 Peter 3:15-16) Peter said that their future glory and home would be in heaven! So again, Mid Acts claims fall short and do what Peter warned about in 2 Peter 3:15-17 on twisting the Scriptures.

    You said:

    10) Another extreme generalization of some unidentified unnamed group. You really should name names instead of trying to broad-brush and condemn everyone that you disagree with. These types of “guilt by attempted association” tactics are not valid and shame on you for using these to try to condemn your fellow believers that you don’t agree with.

    My reply:

    This was many years ago, with various pastors and churches whom were online in chat rooms and had websites. I did have a page with info on that but it seems with a change of sites a few years ago that was missed. However, with that being said I do agree that it is important to have that up for people to know. I will have to update that article.

    For the time being here are some of them.

    Terry McLean with discerningthetimespushing.com
    Don Cote with right divider.org (no longer online)
    Mark Mumma with midactsdispensationalism.com
    Jim Brackin trustingthelord.com/About.html

    Now there were others that I dealt with, and I don’t need to list them all. If what I have shared is inaccurate then prove it.

    So I have replied to what you have shared. If you believe I have shared something wrong, then cite what I said and the Scripture, and prove it wrong. If what I have shared does not apply to you as a Mid Acts believer, can you please provide me with what church you go to and a link to check it out more online to see.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 3, 2012, 10:53 PM
  7. Thanks Kelly,

    Rather than try to continue with that format above (which is getting a little difficult to follow), I’d like to condense this a little and ask you a few honest questions:

    1. Why did God raise up the Apostle Paul?

    God had already commissioned 12 Apostles to take the “gospel” to the whole world. Why would He need ONE more? (NOTE: Paul is not the replacement for Judas Iscariot, as he does not qualify per Acts 1:21-22).

    2. When Christ sent His 12 Apostles out to “preach the gospel of the kingdom” (Matthew 10), did they preach the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

    The 12 had been preaching the gospel of the kingdom for at least 2 years and they did not even know that Christ would die or be resurrected (see Luke 18:34 and note that it is repeated 3 times in that one verse that they had NO knowledge of Christ’s death or of His resurrection).

    How could they be out preaching the gospel for at least 2 years and not know this?

    Even after Christ’s resurrection, they did not know that the scripture had taught about the resurrection (John 20:9).

    3. When God preached the gospel to Abraham (Galatians 3:8), did this include the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

    4. If the 12 were sent by Christ to preach the gospel to the entire world, then why did they agree to constrain their ministry to only Israel (i.e. the circumcision) in Acts 15 (also described in Galatians 2)?

    Also, why was James, who was not even one of the 12, presiding over this assembly in Jerusalem instead of Peter?

    Also, why was the Apostle James who was killed in Acts 12:2 NOT replaced as had been the case for Judas Iscariot?

    Regards,
    Jeff

    Posted by Jeff | November 6, 2012, 7:53 PM
  8. You said:

    Thanks Kelly,
    Rather than try to continue with that format above (which is getting a little difficult to follow), I’d like to condense this a little and ask you a few honest questions:

    My reply:

    I appreciate your willingness to discuss things. However, in my previous post to you I gave some very detailed answers to your objections, and you are not going to further address those things? Maybe next time, don’t do so much objecting so that it is better condensed enough for you, as I did put some effort and time into my reply.

    We can move on, but I did address what was objected to, with valid Biblical responses.

    You said:

    1. Why did God raise up the Apostle Paul?
    God had already commissioned 12 Apostles to take the “gospel” to the whole world. Why would He need ONE more? (NOTE: Paul is not the replacement for Judas Iscariot, as he does not qualify per Acts 1:21-22).

    My reply:

    I realize that you believe it was specifically for Paul to preach the gospel of grace by faith to Jews and Gentiles, which you believe is different than what they apostles before Paul were preaching. In Luke 24:44-47 and Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus did instruct the apostles and early church (Acts 1:8) to be witnesses to all the world, not just Jews.

    According the Acts 9:15-16 Jesus had chosen Saul (Paul) to be vessel/instrument to minister to Gentiles, kings, and the sons of Israel. Why would God need one more? God used Paul in specific ways, just as God has called other people for specific reasons. I have no disagreement that the major ministry of the gospel message for Jews and Gentiles was done through the ministry of the apostle Paul. In the NT we see others whom would be identified as apostles, messengers, missionaries for the faith.

    With that being said though, that does not change the fact that the apostles before Paul also had been instructed to preach to whosoever, all nations, which they did. However they primarily witnessed to Jews as they were living out the faith. (Acts 2:9-11 some Gentiles/ Acts 10:43-48 & Acts 15:7-11 Gentile converts from Peter’s preaching saved by faith just as they were)

    You said:

    2. When Christ sent His 12 Apostles out to “preach the gospel of the kingdom” (Matthew 10), did they preach the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?
    The 12 had been preaching the gospel of the kingdom for at least 2 years and they did not even know that Christ would die or be resurrected (see Luke 18:34 and note that it is repeated 3 times in that one verse that they had NO knowledge of Christ’s death or of His resurrection).

    My reply:

    Before the cross and resurrection the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus did not preach the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is not an issue with our differences. The issue with our differences is after the resurrection of Jesus and what they were instructed to do and what they did. Side note, they did have the knowledge, meaning they were told the message by Jesus numerous times but they did not understand that until after the resurrection and when they had received the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:44-47 and John 7:39 & John 20:22)

    You said:

    How could they be out preaching the gospel for at least 2 years and not know this?
    Even after Christ’s resurrection, they did not know that the scripture had taught about the resurrection (John 20:9).

    My reply:

    As I shared in my previous answer they did not understand this because they were not born again yet, and when Jesus gave them the Spirit they became a new creation in Christ and they were born again, they then understood the death and resurrection message.

    You said:

    When God preached the gospel to Abraham (Galatians 3:8), did this include the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

    My reply:

    The message of the death and resurrection was not directly spoken to Abraham from what we read in the Scriptures. The message of a suffering servant (Messiah) and a victorious servant (Messiah) we read about was primary in Psalms (2, 22) and Isaiah (42, 52-53). What God spoke to Abraham had according to Paul in Galatians 3 had more to it than we could see from face value. This again is not an issue.

    You said:

    If the 12 were sent by Christ to preach the gospel to the entire world, then why did they agree to constrain their ministry to only Israel (i.e. the circumcision) in Acts 15 (also described in Galatians 2)?

    My reply:

    In Acts 15:5 we see the Pharisees trying to trap them by imposing on them circumcision for salvation. However, in Acts 15:7-11 we see Peter standing up for the Gentiles that they were saved by faith, just as they were. (apostles and Jews) That is pretty cool, Peter preached that the Gentiles were saved by faith just like they were, thats the same message Paul preached.

    In Acts 15:13-20 that James stood up for the Gentiles as well, that the Gentiles would seek the Lord. Where does it say in Acts 15 that the 12’s ministry was only to Israel? Which verse is that please?

    In Galatians 2:7-9 we see Paul addressing this somewhat, but not how you said it. I still don’t see “only to Israel” for Peter and the other apostles. What we see in these verses is the specific leading by the Lord for them to minister to certain groups, but not “only” those groups. Paul preached first to the Jew, then the Gentile! (Rom.1:16) Peter preached to the Jews, but not them only. (Acts 10:43-48 & Acts 15:7-11 & 2 Peter 3:15-16) We see how God was using people for specific tasks to reach people, and at the same time they would reach out to other people.

    At times I have been involved with different guys to go out and share the gospel message. As groups we prayed and sought direction from the Lord, and there were times where we believed God was leading certain guys to go one direction and other guys another direction. We were reaching different people with the message of Jesus. The same is said of Peter and Paul, when properly understood.

    Question? If you believe Galatians 2:7-9 is actually teaching that Paul went to preach grace to Gentiles and Jews, and that Peter was sent to the Jews to preach the gospel of the kingdom, how then do you understand Galatians 1:6-9? Paul said anyone who “preaches” another gospel contrary to what they were preaching was to be accursed! According to your view Peter and Paul were preaching different gospels. If that is so, Paul’s teaching would indicate that Peter was accursed for preaching a different gospel than what Paul preached.

    You said:

    Also, why was James, who was not even one of the 12, presiding over this assembly in Jerusalem instead of Peter?

    My reply:

    You are right, this James was not the brother of John, but it would seem possibly the half brother of Jesus. It does not say directly that James was over Peter, I am not sure that really matters. What I do know is that James became a leader, a pillar for the truth and the faith. Peter stood up, James stood up, in Acts 15.

    You said:

    Also, why was the Apostle James who was killed in Acts 12:2 NOT replaced as had been the case for Judas Iscariot?

    My reply:

    I don’t know. It is never directly stated. I don’t understand why in Acts 1 that they even needed to replace Judas, but they did and it seems with the Lord’s help.

    This however is not the crux of our differences. The main difference is the issue of what you believe Paul taught in comparison to Peter and that you believer there was two different groups. As shared before with Gal. 1:6-9, if they were preaching another gospel as you claim, wouldn’t that mean they were accursed as Paul stated?

    Ok, I have replied to what you have inquired about. I know you will reply, so when you do, stay with what has been discussed here or in my other reply to you other comments. I don’t plan on playing the bible hopscotch game jumping all over the place.

    I want to repost something I shared with you in my previous reply to you and I do wish for a reply from you.

    Quote from me before:

    “6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” (Acts 15 KJ)

    “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1 KJ)

    Peter preached Gentiles saved by faith, just as they were! Not by works! Peter wrote to the same Christians as Paul did, remember? (2 Peter 3:15-16) Peter said that their future glory and home would be in heaven!

    “15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:15-16 KJ)

    Question – How did Peter say that the Gentiles were saved in Acts 15:7-11?

    Question – in 1 Peter 1:3-5 where does Peter say that their hope was to be one day, in reference to the after life?

    Question – In 2 Peter 3:15-16 who wrote to the same people as Peter did?

    I look forward to your replies.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 6, 2012, 11:52 PM
  9. Just a reminder: I don’t believe that there is a “gospel of works”, but it is clear that during the dispensation of the Law that works were required by the faithful.

    You said:
    In Acts 15:13-20 that James stood up for the Gentiles as well, that the Gentiles would seek the Lord. Where does it say in Acts 15 that the 12’s ministry was only to Israel? Which verse is that please?

    My reply:
    It doesn’t say it in Acts 15, it says it in Galatians 2 (which is Paul’s description of the events of Acts 15).

    And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; *that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.*
    (Gal 2:9)

    Regardless of how you look at it there is a division here, whereas the twelve were originally commissioned to go to the whole world.

    Your said:
    You are right, this James was not the brother of John, but it would seem possibly the half brother of Jesus. It does not say directly that James was over Peter, I am not sure that really matters. What I do know is that James became a leader, a pillar for the truth and the faith. Peter stood up, James stood up, in Acts 15.
    My Reply:
    James says: “Wherefore MY sentence is…” (Acts 15:19). He does not say “OUR”. Does that sound like he and Peter stood up together as equals here? Also note Peter’s complete and total absence from the remainder of the Book of Acts. Not one single mention of Peter after Acts 15:14, Why?

    Indeed, Peter did say that the Gentiles are saved by faith just like the Jews. But he was not given the complete message in the same way that Paul was. Don’t forget that when Peter was told to go to the household of Cornelius, he still considered it unlawful (up to that point in time). He had to be told by God to go “doubting nothing”. Indeed, it was this event that prepared Peter to accept the ministry of Paul.

    Please also note that the revelation given to Paul was not all at once, but was given to him over time. Also note that Paul said that one of his responsibilities was to “complete the Word of God” (Colossians 1:25).

    Paul is the primary messenger of God for the dispensation of the grace of God just like Moses was for the dispensation of the Law. This does not mean that we throw out the rest of the Bible, but it does mean that some parts are more pertinent to us NOW than other parts.

    Regarding Israels future “in heaven” I would tell you that the “kingdom of heaven” referred to only in Matthew is an earthly kingdom which will have Christ as its King and Israel, with its twelve Apostles, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). Don’t forget that Christ taught His twelve to pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:10)
    Compare this with Paul who declares that we are to: “Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.” (Colossians 3:2). When this earthly kingdom is established, Israel will once again be in a primary place amongst the nations with the Gentile nations in a secondary place:
    Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
    (Zec 8:22-23)

    God’s revelation to Paul was the beginning of the dispensation of the grace of God. Peter learned about this indirectly through the vision that God gave him in Acts 10 but directly from Paul later. In Acts 2-3, Peter excludes Gentiles (other than proselytes) from his message (Ye men of Judaea, Ye men of Israel, Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly…). Paul’s call and conversion occurs in Acts 9, right before the vision that God gave to Peter in Acts 10.

    Paul claims unique revelation from God, many times. In 1 Timothy, Paul claims that he is the “pattern to them which should hereafter believe…”.
    Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
    (1Ti 1:16)

    On three occasions in scripture, Paul calls what he teaches “my gospel”. Isn’t that a bit arrogant if it’s just the same as what the twelve were teaching? In Ephesians 3:2, Paul says that the dispensation of the grace of God was given to HIM. Is this another case of arrogance?

    You said:
    I don’t know. It is never directly stated. I don’t understand why in Acts 1 that they even needed to replace Judas, but they did and it seems with the Lord’s help.
    My reply:
    The reason that they needed to replace Judas we because they needed twelve apostles to judge the twelve tribes of Israel just like Jesus Christ had told them (Matthew 19:28). The tribulation and the restoration of the kingdom were “at hand” just like Jesus Christ had told them (Matthew 4:17).

    The reason that James was NOT replaced was because God had concluded Israel (and the rest of the world) in unbelief (Romans 11:32) and had set Israel aside (Romans 11:11) to reveal the dispensation of the grace of God to and through Paul (Romans 16:25-26).

    If you’ll note the timing of these events, it was immediately after the stoning of Stephen that Paul is called. It was at that time that God put the “old” program on hold and revealed the “new” one.

    You said:
    Question? If you believe Galatians 2:7-9 is actually teaching that Paul went to preach grace to Gentiles and Jews, and that Peter was sent to the Jews to preach the gospel of the kingdom, how then do you understand Galatians 1:6-9? Paul said anyone who “preaches” another gospel contrary to what they were preaching was to be accursed! According to your view Peter and Paul were preaching different gospels. If that is so, Paul’s teaching would indicate that Peter was accursed for preaching a different gospel than what Paul preached.
    My reply:
    If you read carefully and closely you will see that Paul was addressing a specific audience in Galatians. Note that three times in Galatians 1:8-9 Paul says: “unto YOU”.

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel *unto you* than that which we have preached *unto you*, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel *unto you* than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
    (Gal 1:8-9)

    Paul was preaching the gospel of the grace of God. The “other” gospel that they were receiving was the gospel of the kingdom. Notice that Paul continues on to explain where he got “that” gospel of “his”.

    But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    (Gal 1:11-12)

    Paul’s gospel was not based on any Old Testament scriptures or tradition handed down to him, but was a direct revelation from Jesus Christ.

    I hope this helps.

    Best regards in Christ,
    Jeff

    Posted by Jeff | November 7, 2012, 2:37 PM
  10. It seems to me that anti-mid-acts folks have this philosophy when reading the Bible: see similarities and call them the same, then just ignore differences.

    The problem with this is that sometimes similar things are not the same; and differences are sometimes more important than similarities.

    Posted by Jeff | November 10, 2012, 8:51 AM
  11. Hi Jeff.

    You said: It seems to me that anti-mid-acts folks have this philosophy when reading the Bible: see similarities and call them the same, then just ignore differences.

    The problem with this is that sometimes similar things are not the same; and differences are sometimes more important than similarities.

    I am not sure what the point of that was, but I do plan to reply to your previous comment soon. ttyl

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 10, 2012, 11:01 PM
  12. You said:
    Before the cross and resurrection the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus did not preach the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is not an issue with our differences. The issue with our differences is after the resurrection of Jesus and what they were instructed to do and what they did. Side note, they did have the knowledge, meaning they were told the message by Jesus numerous times but they did not understand that until after the resurrection and when they had received the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:44-47 and John 7:39 & John 20:22)

    My reply:
    Paul taught the following:

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for
    ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    (Gal 3:28 KJV)

    But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
    (Gal 6:14 KJV)

    Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
    (Col 3:11 KJV)

    For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    (Eph 2:18 KJV)

    Please show me where Peter and the twelve taught ANY of this in Acts 2-3 AFTER the resurrection.

    Please show me the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ when Peter preached ONLY to Jews and proselytes (those are Gentiles that have converted to Judaism).

    If Peter and the twelve spread the news about Jews and Gentiles being fellow-heirs in Christ (Ephesians 3:6), why were the disciples still preaching to Jews ONLY many years later?

    Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
    (Act 11:19 KJV)

    Thanks for you reply,
    Jeff

    Posted by Jeff | November 11, 2012, 4:40 PM
  13. You said:
    With that being said though, that does not change the fact that the apostles before Paul also had been instructed to preach to whosoever, all nations, which they did. However they primarily witnessed to Jews as they were living out the faith. (Acts 2:9-11 some Gentiles/ Acts 10:43-48 & Acts 15:7-11 Gentile converts from Peter’s preaching saved by faith just as they were)

    My reply:
    Regarding Acts 2, you don’t seem to understand what a “proselyte” is. A proselyte is not just a generic Gentile but someone that had joined with Israel and is required be circumcised (males); to keep the feasts; to rest on the Sabbath day; etc. These proselytes are converts to Judaism and are the only people that Peter addressed along with his people, Israel. This does not show that Peter had any understanding of what Paul calls the “the one new man” indicating no distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

    Regarding Acts 10, as I mentioned before Peter had to be told to go “doubting nothing”. God did not reveal to him “the one new man”. Peter still considered it unlawful to associate with Gentiles (even these God fearing, alms giving, and praying people). If Jesus Christ had preached “the one new man” to Peter and the rest, why were they “astonished” when the Holy Ghost fell upon these Gentiles? Shouldn’t this have been expected?

    Regarding Act 15:7-11, why did James’ sentence (the one he called “MY sentence”) only apply to the Gentiles? You’re trying to tell me that both groups (the 12 and Paul) taught the SAME things.

    Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not THEM, WHICH FROM AMONG THE GENTILES ARE TURNED TO GOD: But that we write UNTO THEM, THAT THEY abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    (Act 15:19-20 KJV)

    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, TO LAY UPON YOU no greater burden than these necessary things; THAT YE ABSTAIN from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which IF YE KEEP YOURSELVES, YE SHALL DO WELL. Fare ye well.
    (Act 15:28-29 KJV)

    Why doesn’t James apply these to ALL believer, Jew and Gentile alike?

    I look forward to your answers to these questions.

    Regards,
    Jeff

    Posted by Jeff | November 11, 2012, 9:28 PM
  14. Hi Jeff. Ok, take a break for a bit, you have now three separate replies, though they all could be one in reply to me. I want to state a simply thing here in regards to why we have this section of articles and the issues of division. What you continue to share is exactly what I have stated, of which you said I was wrong, but in fact you are proving why there are things to be concerned with Mid Acts theology. Now, I am not sure if you were done in replying to me, I presume so by the way you worded your last post. There are points that I have shared that you have missed, and though I realize you think the same of me, the problem is which pair of glasses we wear when we read the Scriptures. You are reading with the Mid Acts glasses and that is how you see things in God’s Word. I try to not have any denominational bias, which can be hard, but focusing on God’s Word in context and allowing the Holy Spirit to give understanding. I am not saying this with anything against you directly, but just stating that with all the Mid Acts folks whom I have dealt with they are all stuck in their traditions of men circle spinning out of control. I have talked to those who have come out of Mid Acts whom have shared their concerns with me and why they came out of it, and for some I have been a part of their process, and with that it takes time and humility.

    With that being said I will get to your replies back to me. After I reply, let’s focus on one aspect at a time instead of going all over the place which can be exhausting and sometimes lost with all the information being shared.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 11, 2012, 10:00 PM
  15. Kelly,

    I’m sorry to have to tell you that it is you that is clinging to the traditions of men.

    I am not a follower of anyone but Jesus Christ and I read His word for myself (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course). I really do feel sorry for you and will continue to pray for you.

    Best regards In Christ,
    Jeff

    P.S. The Christian world today is just like it was 2000 years ago regarding how the majority treat Paul. Please don’t add yourself to the list.

    This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
    (2Ti 1:15 KJV)

    Posted by Jeff | November 11, 2012, 10:13 PM
  16. Jeff, you said: “I am not a follower of anyone but Jesus Christ and I read His word for myself (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course). I really do feel sorry for you and will continue to pray for you.” You are not following Jesus Christ, you are following Paul, but you are not really even following Paul’s example. You said: “The Christian world today is just like it was 2000 years ago regarding how the majority treat Paul. Please don’t add yourself to the list.” Well, you are right it is like 2000 years ago, people claiming to be followers of Paul and not following accurately, of which Paul had to address in 1 Corinthians 1:10-13. So for the last 2000 years people have been following Paul wrongly, which the Mid Acts sects have fallen into as well.

    As I shared just before for you to take a little break on posting as I will be replying to your posts. I will give my replies and then state for you to go ahead, so please just be a little patient and not post now. Thanks.

    10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Corinthians 1:10-13 KJ)

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 11, 2012, 10:21 PM
  17. Hello Jeff, again. I am reply here just to give a reply since I gave a thorough reply to you on the other article. This will enforce what I have shared here and over there. I post what you posted of me and your reply, and then give my reply.

    Quote: You said:
    In Acts 15:13-20 that James stood up for the Gentiles as well, that the Gentiles would seek the Lord. Where does it say in Acts 15 that the 12’s ministry was only to Israel? Which verse is that please?

    My reply:
    It doesn’t say it in Acts 15, it says it in Galatians 2 (which is Paul’s description of the events of Acts 15).

    And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; *that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.*
    (Gal 2:9)

    My reply: Again, where does it state “only to Israel” in Galatians 2:9? It states they would go to the circumcision, but no where does it say “only”!!! So as I shared in my previous post you are in error.

    Quote: Your said:
    You are right, this James was not the brother of John, but it would seem possibly the half brother of Jesus. It does not say directly that James was over Peter, I am not sure that really matters. What I do know is that James became a leader, a pillar for the truth and the faith. Peter stood up, James stood up, in Acts 15.
    My Reply:
    James says: “Wherefore MY sentence is…” (Acts 15:19). He does not say “OUR”. Does that sound like he and Peter stood up together as equals here? Also note Peter’s complete and total absence from the remainder of the Book of Acts. Not one single mention of Peter after Acts 15:14, Why?

    Indeed, Peter did say that the Gentiles are saved by faith just like the Jews. But he was not given the complete message in the same way that Paul was. Don’t forget that when Peter was told to go to the household of Cornelius, he still considered it unlawful (up to that point in time). He had to be told by God to go “doubting nothing”. Indeed, it was this event that prepared Peter to accept the ministry of Paul.

    My reply: Jeff what is the whole text of Acts 15:13-35? In these Scriptures we see James being a leader reminding them of the Old Testament passages in reference to the Gentiles, and sending Paul and Barnabas with other leaders to the Gentiles to give them written instructions which the elders and the whole church agreed with, and including Paul being the one whom shared this information to the Gentiles. Funny how Paul was instructed and sent by James and the elders to talk with the Gentiles concerning the their faith, and that Paul delivered that message to them.

    “13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. 33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. 34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. 35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.” (Acts 15 KJ)

    Funny how we see James working together with Peter in standing up for the Gentiles in the faith being saved apart from the bondage of works, and that Paul was in agreement with this and was sent, delivered the written message, and preached the word of the Lord there with many others. Whom were the others? Could it be Judas, Silas, and others whom you think were only for the Jews? It is amazing how people will see what man’s traditions have taught them to see and miss the basics of the Christian faith.

    Also, as to Peter not being mentioned after Acts 15, so what? We do see Peter mentioning in 2 Peter 3:14-18 that he wrote to the same Christians that Paul wrote to, Jews and Gentiles. Funny how Paul and Peter wrote to the same Christians, wonder how that happened?

    Quote: You said:
    Question? If you believe Galatians 2:7-9 is actually teaching that Paul went to preach grace to Gentiles and Jews, and that Peter was sent to the Jews to preach the gospel of the kingdom, how then do you understand Galatians 1:6-9? Paul said anyone who “preaches” another gospel contrary to what they were preaching was to be accursed! According to your view Peter and Paul were preaching different gospels. If that is so, Paul’s teaching would indicate that Peter was accursed for preaching a different gospel than what Paul preached.
    My reply:
    If you read carefully and closely you will see that Paul was addressing a specific audience in Galatians. Note that three times in Galatians 1:8-9 Paul says: “unto YOU”…

    Paul was preaching the gospel of the grace of God. The “other” gospel that they were receiving was the gospel of the kingdom. Notice that Paul continues on to explain where he got “that” gospel of “his”.

    Paul’s gospel was not based on any Old Testament scriptures or tradition handed down to him, but was a direct revelation from Jesus Christ.

    My reply: a specific audience? Yes, the Christians in Galatia, whom were being taught another gospel message for salvation, that was based upon human works and efforts, not based upon what the Spirit had started. (Gal. 3:1-7)

    The “other gospel” was the gospel of the kingdom? WHAT? That is what you believe and Mid Acts folks teach that Peter and the others apostles taught which was different from what Paul taught! So as I shared, would that not mean Paul just condemned Peter and those whom preached that kind of message? Or only those in Galatia? Oh wait, check this out…

    “1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied…15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (1 Peter 1:1-2 & 2 Peter 3:15-18 KJ)

    Peter wrote to the same Christians in Galatia as well as Paul did, oh my! So Peter must of been preaching the gospel of the kingdom to those in Galatia, so Paul must of meant also Peter in Galatians 1:6-9, right!!! Of course not, cause Peter and Paul taught the same gospel but in different ways, but not contrary ways and that is important to understand.

    Here is more Scriptures to feed on concerning Paul and the Old Testament Scriptures concerning faith in Jesus Christ for salvation…

    “14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3 KJ)

    There is so much that could be stated here concerning these verses that Paul wrote to Timothy. Hey, this was written to Timothy only right? That could be the same reasoning you Mid Acts folks use for how you divide up the books of the Bible from Paul and the other authors. Anyways, in 2 Timothy 3 we see Paul stating that Timothy could know about salvation through faith in Christ Jesus through the “holy scriptures” being in reference to the Old Testament Scriptures at that time. So again, you as a Mid Acts follower are wrong concerning your claims on Paul and the Old Testament Scriptures concerning salvation by faith in Christ Jesus.

    You quoted me saying: “Before the cross and resurrection the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus did not preach the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is not an issue with our differences. The issue with our differences is after the resurrection of Jesus and what they were instructed to do and what they did. Side note, they did have the knowledge, meaning they were told the message by Jesus numerous times but they did not understand that until after the resurrection and when they had received the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:44-47 and John 7:39 & John 20:22)”

    But you did not even address the points I shared in this and you went on to post things that had nothing to do with what I shared.

    Quote: You said:
    With that being said though, that does not change the fact that the apostles before Paul also had been instructed to preach to whosoever, all nations, which they did. However they primarily witnessed to Jews as they were living out the faith. (Acts 2:9-11 some Gentiles/ Acts 10:43-48 & Acts 15:7-11 Gentile converts from Peter’s preaching saved by faith just as they were)

    My reply:
    Regarding Acts 2, you don’t seem to understand what a “proselyte” is. A proselyte is not just a generic Gentile but someone that had joined with Israel and is required be circumcised (males); to keep the feasts; to rest on the Sabbath day; etc. These proselytes are converts to Judaism and are the only people that Peter addressed along with his people, Israel. This does not show that Peter had any understanding of what Paul calls the “the one new man” indicating no distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

    Regarding Acts 10, as I mentioned before Peter had to be told to go “doubting nothing”. God did not reveal to him “the one new man”. Peter still considered it unlawful to associate with Gentiles (even these God fearing, alms giving, and praying people). If Jesus Christ had preached “the one new man” to Peter and the rest, why were they “astonished” when the Holy Ghost fell upon these Gentiles? Shouldn’t this have been expected?

    Regarding Act 15:7-11, why did James’ sentence (the one he called “MY sentence”) only apply to the Gentiles? You’re trying to tell me that both groups (the 12 and Paul) taught the SAME things.

    My reply: Proselytes were non Jews, period. Yes, “proselytes” were Gentile converts to the Jewish faith, so what? They were still non Jews! Thus Peter in Acts 2 would have been addressing Jews and Gentiles, whether they be of the Jewish faith or not. And again, I agree Peter did not understand everything in his early stages of ministry, but neither did Paul! Peter was used for the ministry to be a witness of Jesus, and as like with many of us we have baggage that we have to learn over time to deal with and things we need to change. Just because Peter was not doing the exact same things the way Paul did thing does not mean they were teaching two different gospels. Nor does that mean Peter and Paul had separate gospel ministries where Peter was preaching only one gospel to Jews and Paul one gospel only to Jews and Gentiles,that is not what the Scriptures teach in any shape or form.

    As to Acts 10, Peter was still learning, and God used this as a way to get his attention and to help him get it more clearly. Just because Peter had not had his understanding accurate or more mature in the faith, that did not mean he was teaching a kingdom gospel message that was not by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and heaven bound! We see that being clearly stated otherwise in Acts 15:7-11 and 1 Peter 1:3-5 where he indicates the Gentiles are saved by faith in Jesus Christ apart from the works of the law, just like they were, meaning the Jews! And Peter wrote to the Christians stating their future was in the heavenly realm, not earth!!!

    As to the rest I addressed that in my other reply to you in the article “Hyper-Dispensationalism and the New Covenant…”

    As I can see you have confirmed what I have shared the articles concerning what Mid Acts folks believe. I can say thank you for that. But I do wish and hope that you take a break out of that for a time, and allow the Word of God to speak clearly, from Genesis to Revelation. You have shared what you believe and I have replied. I appreciate your coming here but as I see you are set in your views and I stand on what I have shared, thus our dialogue will be what it has been. As Peter said I will end with.

    “15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.” (2 Peter 3 KJ)

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 18, 2012, 11:34 PM
  18. Kelly, thanks for your article on exposing the Mid Acts Dispensationalists. I was surfing along just reading about pre-trib articles when I began reading what seemed to not jive with me on a website called “Rapture Watch Forum”. I’ve never heard of this movement until today. They were placing an arcane and uncanny emphasis on Paul and the division of Scripture in ways I’ve never ever been taught that are not normal nor heard of. This was a red flag.

    One person began refuting their teachings and that’s when I decided to step back to find out what in the world these people believe…so that’s when I came across your article…

    May the Lord bless you richly

    Posted by Linda | December 25, 2012, 8:22 PM
  19. I’ve been reading about the Mid Acts Dispensationalists and I’m learning what they believe and their errors and false division of the word of God.

    I do have a question since you are more knowledgeable than I with this movement. Since they preach “another gospel” because they believe there are at least 2 gospels, are they condemned just like God’s word says in Galatians 1:8-9? Are they lost since they don’t believe that the Gospel requires repentance? One more question are they legalistic even though they claim to believe in the gospel of grace apart from Christ? I just don’t see how anyone can believe in the Only true Gospel if they believe in Paul and not Jesus? Is this where they are erroneously placing their faith——-In Paul???
    Thanks~

    Posted by Linda | December 28, 2012, 3:41 PM
  20. Hello Linda, thanks for the comments. Great to hear that you found our site and our information was useful to help inform you. As to your questions, some really good ones. When truly examined in their perspectives, yes they do preach/teach another gospel which is contrary to what the Scriptures teach concerning Jesus Christ and salvation. With saying that I do believe there are some involved in it that could be saved, but are very mislead and Lord willing in time I believe will come out of it. However those whom are higher up, more involved in leadership, and those that are defenders of it whom have been informed of their errors but refuse to listen, those I believe are unfortunately wolves in sheep clothing. I would conclude they use lip service to say they are saved by Jesus, but after numerous conversations with Mid Acts teachers/believers they do place Paul above not realizing it. I can recall talking to many of them asking, “if Paul was not saved and did not write his letters, could we be saved by grace in Jesus Christ without works through what is recorded in the NT outside of Paul?” The answer was no every time! Again, it is those who are more involved as teachers that I believer are the ones truly lost in their false traditions, and it those whom are easily mislead that fall into it. I hope that helps.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | December 30, 2012, 2:24 PM
  21. Wow,wow we need to pray for these people. Your discerning question and deep biblical acumen to them about (where) and most importantly (WHO) they’ve placed their faith IN says it all. They definitely have another Jesus and another gospel since they said “No”. This is so dangerous because it’s very hidden..

    Thank YOU Kelly Powers and YES you’ve helped me a bunches! All thanks to Christ IN you brother the ONLY ONE worthy of all glory and honor~ I pray most importantly that the Lord gives you the gentleness and humility only found in Christ to lead people OUT.

    Posted by Linda | January 1, 2013, 7:18 AM
  22. Linda, glad to be able to help in this area, which is very complex, but rather simple when thought out. Keep in touch if we can help any other questions with Mid Acts or other topics. Happy New Year.

    “14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” (2 Peter 3 NASB)

    Posted by Kelly Powers | January 3, 2013, 7:05 PM
  23. you say mid acts people twist the scriptures-thats cute,because for years i was an acts 2 christian,expounding the scriptures from a typical ‘fundamentalist’position and after taking a long look at the bible from an Acts9 position,i realised i had been the one twisting the scriptures.i went into all the suppositions you went at ,and after letting scripture interpret scripture[like i thought i had been],i came away from the ‘Acts 2-one gospel’position, and now,i look back at the defence of ‘one gospel’ by sincere christians,and i wonder how i ever took in a shonky,shallow position of Acts 2-one gospel’.Also,i have had the privilege of seeing many other acts 2 -one gospel christians look at the issue and come away from that angle.Paul Hyland,tauranga nz

    Posted by paul hyland | March 31, 2013, 8:29 PM
  24. Kelly is unwilling to see the truth. He prefers tradition. He believes that Paul was under the authority of James (not one of the twelve).

    Paul clearly explains in Galatians 1:18 that he received direct revelation from Jesus Christ apart from the twelve:

    11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
    14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
    17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
    18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
    19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

    Paul received it “not of man” and was not “taught it” (which is a reference to his Jewish education in the scriptures), “BUT by the revelation of Jesus Christ”. He continues to emphasize this point by saying, “Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me”. Indeed, God told him to leave Jerusalem (Acts 22:18).

    Paul it the ONE apostle for the ONE body!

    Posted by GraceBeliever | April 16, 2013, 6:35 PM
  25. I am soooo glad that I left the Mid Acts movement years ago. I can see that they are still “m.a.d” as always with those who disagree. The pride they have has not changed either, as they have to get personal when their arguments do not stop the other person from offering clear-cut objections. Instead of, “Let’s search the scriptures together” is turned into “May the Lord open your eyes to the scripture so that you, too, can understand the Mid-Acts position so clearly taught there…Kelly is unwilling to see the truth. He prefers tradition…I really do feel sorry for you and will continue to pray for you.” I never knew those were Pauline comments to make to others.

    I grew tired of all the “you misrepresented us” and all the circular “long” arguments that pretend to answer the objections but are basically repeating what was already addressed and refuted. I grew tired of having words they would add to a verse to make it mean what they want it to mean. Kelly, you rightly pointed it out about where do we see them saying “Israel only!!!” in the verse. Paul received direct revelation from Christ is where I am supposed to “assume” that the gospel was entirely different but Paul after sharing the gospel in 1st Corinthians 15:3-4 states in verse 11 “Therefore whether it were I or THEY, so WE preach, and so ye believed.” Most MAD commentaries (actually, all MAD commentaries I owned) skip right over verse 11. When I brought this up to a MAD forum was to get a long wordy answer with additions made directly to that verse to skew it.

    Kelly, you do not remember me but we talked years back. I was at Pal-Talk when the MAD group attacked you. The one comment was that the MAD teaching compared to yours would be the same as shooting a cannon at a mouse (no pride intended on their part…not). It was clear that you created fear that day and you apparently wounded their pride of the supposed movement that shoots cannon balls at mouse doctrines. I also remember the follow-up Pal-talk message the following day where they quickly invited you by email for a rebuttal and accused you of avoiding the debate even though you had an evening bible study. I think they were embarrassed because they blasted you and did not allow you to speak the first time. Do you still have that audio? You and I talked briefly by email after that incident but it was enough to lead me straight out of it. We bumped into each other at another Pal-talk room (not a MAD room) and I observed a couple of MAD’s in the group hurling insults (chat not voice) at you without you even typing a word about MAD. You shared that the warm response they give you was typical and their mean-spirited comment was continuing nails to end all ties to that false teaching.

    I grew thoroughly disgusted with them and asked Berean Bible Society to cancel my free subscription and a man named Ricky Kurth responded to my email. He was extremely polite (practically unheard of) and did not want me to cancel my subscription. He shared what he believed was the reason for anger and even the KJV only that filtrated it. I did not buy into his position because it was a long standing fruit of MAD’s that even H.A. Ironside observed, so it clearly was not a recent issue. I have seen non-MAD’s treat them poorly too, but the mean-spirited (let’s debate you jerk) attitude is heavily concentrated in this one movement. You will find a similar attitude in Ruckmanite’s.

    I did find some bizarre beliefs within MAD as they were not all in agreement. Ricky Kurth believed that OT saints lost their salvation but people under Paul did not (Terrence McLean agrees with this error too). He believed Simon the Sorcerer lost his salvation. I remember asking him this question, “What if Simon walked past Peter (after Peter’s comment “pray that this thought be forgiven thee”) to Paul (if he was on the scene at that time) and believed his gospel then would Simon be eternally secure?” Ricky answered, “Yes.” I said, “Who then would want to listen to Peter when his gospel secures nothing and Paul’s gospel secures everything?” Imagine having two identical cars but one comes with conditional warranty (Peter) and the other with unconditional warranty (Paul) then what goof would say, “I like the car with the conditional warranty please”?

    I do not mean to sound condescending but the teachings of MAD and their behavior started making my eye twitch when I would listen to them talk/act as did Chief Inspector Dreyfus eye would twitch when Inspector Clouseau would start talking.

    I did cancel my subscription. I also received a quarterly from another MAD that required a certified letter stating that if he did not stop sending me his publication that I would have to take legal action. This group refused to take me off their mailing and it took nearly a year to be removed. I received an arrogant letter of reply from the man (yes, you know him) after that and was finally removed from their mailing list.

    My only criticism of you Kelly is that I remember that picture you are posting of yourself from years ago. Burn it and update a new photo. I have to congratulate you that it is not you wearing that superman shirt :)

    Keep refuting error!

    Dave

    Posted by Dave | April 23, 2013, 9:52 AM
  26. p.s. The end of the one paragraph said:

    “You shared that the warm response they give you was typical and their mean-spirited comment was continuing nails to end all ties to that false teaching.”

    The continuing nails to end all ties was not a reference to what you felt or said, but it was observing how they treated you that ended all ties on my part to that movement. Just wanted to clarify that!

    Posted by Dave | April 23, 2013, 9:58 AM
  27. Hello Dave. I do remember you a bit from years ago, thanks for your comments. It is such a task showing those involved in something that is twisted, false, etc. I have respect for many within various movements, and I try to demonstrate that, though at times I do fail. I have to admit in dealing with certain groups the ones that seem to lash back (not saying all whom are in these movements are like this) are the Word Faith folks, the Calvinists, and Mid Acts-sters, without really trying to understand what has been shared.

    Knowing that there are those within those movements whom are born again/saved, the fact remains that what is being taught is a twist on the gospel message. My goal is to try to share what the Scriptures teach in clarity, simplicity, and truth. And in doing that at times having to point out what certain groups teach that is not in line with what the Word of God teaches.

    Dave thanks for sharing, I hope you are doing well and growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. (2 Peter 3:18) Ha, I just reference Peter, is that allowed :)

    Keep in touch,

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | April 23, 2013, 1:54 PM
  28. Kelly,

    You said:

    “I hope you are doing well and growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. (2 Peter 3:18) Ha, I just reference Peter, is that allowed :) ”

    Is that allowed? Not allowed! I am not Jewish so growing in grace does not apply to me. You have got to stop quoting other people’s mail :-P Just kidding!

    I will keep in touch!

    Dave

    Posted by Dave | April 23, 2013, 2:13 PM
  29. Truly in Christ, there is no junk mail :)

    Not truly in Christ, there is lots of junk mail.

    Solution…be in Christ, be born again, set free, a new creation, saved and sealed and secure… (Jn.3:1-21, John 8:31-32, 2 Cor. 5:17-21, Eph. 1, 1:13-14 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:10-13)

    Amen,

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | April 23, 2013, 2:39 PM
  30. It’s too b.a.d. that you guys have apparently interacted with some that you think poorly of, but that does not mean that the Mid-Act position is off and that you are correct. Let me try to help you (oh no, I’m arrogant).

    God tells us the following through Paul:
    (2Co 5:16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    God it trying to explain that what Christ taught to Israel during His earthly ministry is NOT what WE TODAY need to follow. This is why Paul says (through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God):
    (1Co 4:15) For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
    (1Co 4:16) Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

    You probably think that Paul is arrogant like MAD believers (by MAD believers I mean people who are saved by the blood of Christ and understand the Bible from a Mid-Acts perspective), but he is not. He is the ONE apostle for the ONE body, unlike the TWELVE apostles for the TWELVE TRIBES (Israel). Are you in the BODY or the TRIBES?

    Immediately after God telling us that we no longer to know Christ “after the flesh”, He tells us about the NEW CREATURE (the very next verse and in the same context). This is the BODY OF CHRIST.

    (2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    So we see that if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE. This is NOT about being “born again” (which is nowhere to be found in the passage or context). OLD THINGS are passed away, ALL THINGS are become new.

    God also explains “Christ in the flesh” through Paul in Romans 9:
    (Rom 9:1) I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
    (Rom 9:2) That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
    (Rom 9:3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    (Rom 9:4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    (Rom 9:5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    “and of whom AS CONCERNING THE FLESH Christ came”!

    Again, God tells us about this in (Rom 15:8):
    Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

    Note that Christ was “a minister of the circumcision” and that means ISRAEL. Also note that based on prophecy the kingdom of Israel with Christ as her King will “reign over the Gentiles”. The Gentiles will serve Israel when the Kingdom comes; see this in Isaiah:
    (Isa 61:5) And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
    (Isa 61:6) But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

    These were some of the “promises made unto the fathers”.

    Jesus, Himself, confirmed this nature of His earthly ministry:
    (Mat 15:24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    But most “believers” don’t believe Him.

    There will not always be the Jew and Gentile equally that we currently have in the Body of Christ. The Gentiles will be greatly blessed in the Kingdom, but ONLY through Israel:
    (Gen 12:1) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
    (Gen 12:2) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
    (Gen 12:3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    In the future, God will bring the earthly kingdom (of Israel) and heavenly body (of Christ) together forever:
    (Eph 1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    That will be, again, a NEW dispensation of God when He brings ALL THINGS together in Christ.

    Praise the Lord!

    Posted by GRACEBELIEVER | April 23, 2013, 6:01 PM
  31. Twisting Scriptures is common from those within sects that have been mislead. I wish that people would take the time to see things through to get a better perspective. Within the Mid Acts Dispensationalist movement there many doctrines that are not Biblical and that need to be addressed and examined by looking at what the Bible teaches. Those within this movement believe that Paul taught a different gospel message than what the other Apostles taught. There are two terms that need to be defined for proper understanding concerning what this information will present. The Gospel according to an Mid Acts Dispensationalist is that Jesus Christ died on the cross, rose again the third day, and that the gift of eternal life is a free gift to anyone who believes in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Mid Acts Dispensationalists believe that Paul was the first one to preach this Gospel and that the other Apostles were preaching a faith-works gospel called the Kingdom of God. They believe that Jesus came only for the nation of Israel and that the Apostles went out preaching the Kingdom of God only to the Jews, and that message was to repent and be baptized, and the doctrine of grace was not revealed until the conversion of the Apostle Paul.

    This is the dividing line when it comes to the truth of the Gospel and the Kingdom of God. What is the Gospel? What is the Kingdom of God? Did Paul only preach the Gospel or did Paul preach both the Gospel and the Kingdom of God as being the same truth? The following Scripture references are from the King James Version.

    The Gospel and the Kingdom of God in the Epistle of 1 Corinthians 15

    In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul expounds on the Gospel message: “1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Something’s to point out here concerning what Paul is teaching. Paul is speaking to those who are believers in Corinth on the message that he has taught them concerning the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul states that the Gospel saves, but it seems that Paul is concerned that there is some that may not be truly standing on the message that he taught them and was concerned that some may of believed in vain. Paul presents the Gospel in simple language. Paul states that it is the Scriptures that teach the truth concerning the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The truth of the Gospel is what saves anyone from the sting of death and sin, and Paul is teaching this truth throughout all of 1 Corinthians 15. In 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 Paul teaches the same Gospel truth concerning the believers future state of being transformed from the natural body to the spiritual body, and Paul is addresses that the natural man can not “inherit the Kingdom of God.”

    1 Corinthians 15:50-58 states: “50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.”

    These Scriptures go with what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 on the Gospel saving those who believe in Jesus, and addresses all those who believe their labor is not in vain. Paul is teaching in verses 50-58 on the doctrine of a believer in Christ being transformed from the natural body, which is corruptible, to the spiritual body, which is incorruptible. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50 teaches that the natural man can not “inherit the kingdom of God” without being transformed, which is clearly speaking of being able to enter into the presence of God. The clear context is the work of the cross and the resurrection accomplished victory over sin and death. The statement “kingdom of God” in 1 Corinthians 15:50 is speaking of eternal life in the presence of God, and Paul equates the Gospel and the Kingdom of God as being the same truth here.

    The Gospel and the Kingdom of God in the Epistle of Galatians 5

    Throughout the Epistle of Galatians the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the central teaching. In Galatians 5 Paul is addressing the lifestyle of those who claim to be believers and those who are walking according to the Spirit. Galatians 5:19-21 states: “19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Paul throughout his Epistles clarifies the doctrine of grace and that those who are truly in Christ are saved by grace through faith and not of works. Paul in the close of verse 21 states “which do such things” shall not inherit “the kingdom of God.” The statement “which do such things” in the Greek actually is stating those who “practice or live in a state of habitual sin”, not the mere act of a sin. The statement “kingdom of God” in verse 21 is a clear reference to the presence of God, and Paul is teaching those who live a life of habitual sin truly are not of God and they will not enter into His presence. The importance of this truth is that Paul taught “the Kingdom of God” as being the same as the Gospel message. The grace of God not only saves anyone from sin and eternal judgment to come, but also teaches to deny unrighteousness and ungodliness. (Titus 2:11-12)

    The Gospel and Kingdom of God in the book of Acts

    The Mid Acts Dispensationalists teach that Paul went through transitions in his theology. The truth is that Paul taught the Kingdom of God as the Gospel message throughout his Epistles and is seen throughout the book of Acts. Acts 14:21-22 states: “21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and [to] Iconium, and Antioch, 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” Paul and Barnabas here preached “the gospel” to those in Acts 14, and in verses 6-7 it states they preached “the gospel” to them: “6 They were ware of [it], and fled unto Lystra and Derbe, cities of Lycaonia, and unto the region that lieth round about: 7 And there they preached the gospel.” (Acts 14:6-7)

    These verses go with Acts 14:21-22 and within these verses we find the following:

    The Gospel was preached and people were saved. Paul and Barnabas returned to exhort them to continue in the faith Peter and Barnabas returned and exhorted them on going through much tribulation to enter into the Kingdom of God. Within these Scriptures we see the Gospel message being the same truth of the Kingdom of God.

    In the book of Acts chapter 20 Paul states the following: “21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: 23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. 24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. 25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.” (Acts 20:21-27) Paul is addressing believers in Ephesus on what he has taught them concerning Jesus Christ. It is clear that Paul taught both Jews and Greeks repentance toward God and faith toward Jesus Christ. It is clear that Paul spoke of his ministry in which he testified of “the gospel of the grace of God” and the “preaching of the kingdom of God.” The context is clear that Paul equates the Gospel and the Kingdom of God as being the same truth concerning Jesus Christ.

    In the closing of the book of Acts Paul is recorded on teaching the following:

    “23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.” (Acts 28:23-31)

    Paul in these Scriptures is said to be teaching and preaching the Kingdom of God concerning Jesus Christ. Did Paul teach what Mid Acts Dispensationalists teach on the Gospel being different from the Kingdom of God? It is very clear that the Kingdom of God truth is the Gospel message. The Kingdom of God was to believe in Jesus, and it is clear that Paul taught this.

    The Kingdom of God is coming to Christ and being delivered from the domain of Satan

    Paul in his Epistle to the Colossians states the following: “13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins.” (Colossians 1:13-14) The truth of the Gospel message is that those who have become believers in Christ Jesus have been delivered from the power of darkness (Satan), and have been translated into the Kingdom of His Son. The true Kingdom of God is the work of the cross and what Jesus paid for with His life and through the resurrection.

    Mid Acts Dispensationalists are deceived in their doctrines concerning what the Apostle Paul taught. Mid Acts Dispensationalists have false teachings on what the Gospel and the Kingdom of God truly is, and the Bible is very clear that they are not teaching the Word of God in truth. The Apostle Peter wrote that there were those who were wrongly interpreting what Paul was teaching:

    “15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.” (2 Peter 3:15-18)

    There were people who were being misled by their own theology on what Paul taught back then and continues today. May this information be used to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and help those who have been deceived in this false movement that claims to be of God come to see the truth of God’s Word.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | April 28, 2013, 10:21 PM
  32. GraceBelliever, I wanted to let you know that I choose not to post your last comment because of a few reasons. First, you have not replied to things shared from me in reference to the discussion, thus you are just a one sided discussion. Secondly, you are not very reasonable as you continue to accuse me of things. (Kelly is unwilling to see the truth…Kelly prefers to follow tradition…Kelly believes Paul was under James authority…Kelly make God to be a lair when you claim that He will not keep His promises to the fathers.)

    Instead of your continuous accusations and jabs, and your continuous posting of your side, why not respond to things & Scriptures that I have shared concerning this topic? If you do that and it is reasonable, I will post it. If not, thanks for your contributions.

    “15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” (2 Peter 3 NASB)

    Posted by Kelly Powers | April 30, 2013, 12:11 AM
  33. Hey Kelly I ran across a MAD in a FB group today. I haven’t ran across one for a long while, almost like hitting the lottery. Good to see you are keeping up the information here!

    Dennis A. (cup of Java)

    Posted by java37 | June 7, 2013, 7:31 PM
  34. Hey Dennis, great to hear from you. They are out there, have you listened to our podcast https://rootedinchrist.org/2013/05/10/peters-gospel-and-mid-acts-dispensationalism-berean-perspective-podcast/ Let me know your thoughts. ttyl

    Posted by Kelly Powers | June 7, 2013, 8:24 PM
  35. Kelly,

    I don’t think I have listed to this one. Will check it out this week for sure. Will post some thoughts then.

    Posted by java37 | June 12, 2013, 1:15 PM
  36. Hey Dennis, let me know your thoughts, ttyl

    Posted by Kelly Powers | June 12, 2013, 2:32 PM
  37. I agree, great post. Check out my blog too brother. God bless you!

    Posted by huckleberry2012 | September 30, 2014, 1:13 AM
  38. Hi Huckleberry, thanks for the encouragement. I did go to your link, read some things, which I thought was good. My suggestion though is to have your articles in a way which people can see them on the side in categories listed or different sections instead of having to scroll down to see what you have to offer. That helps people whom visit know what you have and they may read more of what is shared. May you continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus 2 Peter 3:18

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | October 8, 2014, 6:00 PM
  39. This is good reading!, thank you for your input and suggestions. May the Lord continue to bless you !

    Posted by huckleberry2012 | October 8, 2014, 6:22 PM
  40. https://rootedinchrist.org/2008/01/01/be-careful-of-mid-acts-dispensationalism/#comment-537

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 6, 2012, 11:52 PM

    In it, he references Acts 15:5 – THE KEY REVELATION AGAINST DISPENSATIONALISM (hairesis 139) (pisteuō 4100): THE HERESY OF THE HEBREW FAITH [which was CIRCUMCISION].

    The Jerusalem church activity of Peter, James, and Paul was not an endorsement of the heresy, but was the strategy to end it.

    Posted by Carl Nobile | October 15, 2014, 7:08 PM
  41. The one thing that really puts me off the MAD position is that they teach that repentance is no longer required. That smacks of pride and a misunderstanding of the whole Biblical concept of sin.

    Posted by Pete | January 9, 2015, 5:21 AM
  42. They are the most legalist “grace believers” I’ve ever met, their exclusion of everything but Paul’s epistles leads to some strange pigeonholed doctrines. One being “two separate programs” for the Jew and Gentile in the mellinial reign, yet Paul himself states that there is no difference, we are all one body, as the Gentile grace believer is a joint heir to the promises, and will rule and reign with Christ on the mellinial Kingdom.
    Another is they refuse to see shadows and allegorys in the scriptures for understanding, (all the gentile brides of the men in the bible from Adam to Boaz to David for example, are a picture of Christ and HIS Gentile bride)
    Paul uses many allegorys, but that’s ok of course, except for eph 5. They cherry pick scripture. Most are dead on concerning salvation, but totally clueless concerning what the Bible says about our future destiny as believers.
    My research concludes it is basically Bullingerism, started back in the late 1800’s, and is akin to cult doctrine. I recommend any believer avoid even the appearance of it.

    Posted by Huckleberry2012 | January 12, 2015, 12:54 PM
  43. Are you familiar with the Grace School of the Bible? If so, would they fall into the M.A.D. Category?

    Posted by truthunites | June 29, 2016, 9:46 AM
  44. Hello there. Sorry I did not reply sooner. I went to the Grace School of the Bible online and read their Doctrinal Statement.

    “3. We teach that the church, the Body of Christ, and the dispensation of grace began in mid- Acts with the salvation and commissioning of the Apostle Paul. We teach that the Apostle Paul is the one and only man to whom the ascended Lord Jesus Christ gave the revelation of the mystery concerning the Body of Christ and the dispensation of grace (Rom. 11:13, Eph. 3:1-9, Gal. 1:11,12; 2:1-10). We further teach that until this message was revealed to and through the Apostle Paul it was never revealed to man (Rom. 16:25,26, Eph. 3:1-9, Col. 1:25-27).” http://understandgrace.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/GSB-Doctrinal-Statement.pdf

    They definitely are of the M.A.D. Category.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | July 6, 2016, 10:27 PM
  45. I’m dealing with these MAD people on their forum. Theological Online Forums (TOL) and a meaner and more stubborn group I have yet to meet.

    Posted by HUW THOMAS | May 30, 2017, 5:31 AM
  46. Huw Thomas, hi there. Which discussions are you at, what is your nic there. I will try to check some out. Thanks.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | May 31, 2017, 3:29 PM
  47. Hello.

    MAD here. Just one question, please, but first I think we’ll agree on the following:

    Christ had twelve Spirit-filled, miracle-working, Kingdom-preaching apostles, each representing a tribe of Israel, chosen to lead the washed, redeemed nation of priests (Exo 19:6; Mark 1:15; Acts 2:38) unto the entire lost Gentile world with the good news of Messiah, the King of all the earth.

    But then, something odd happens.

    Christ chooses Saul/Paul to be the preeminent apostle to the Gentiles, and restricts the ministry of the Twelve to the circumcision (Gal 2:2-9). About the final 2/3rds of Acts indicate that this is exactly what happened, as does the addressees of the general epistles. The entire focus of God’s dealings on earth shifts from Peter and the others being the point men, to Paul and his associates.

    So my question:

    Why did this shift take place?

    What happened to the “great commission” given to the Twelve? It was indeed in motion, exactly as Christ had described it, right up through Acts 2 and the following few chapters. But later…nothing. Instead, we see Christ graciously drafting his bitter enemy and sending him to the Gentiles, without the Twelve and a repentant priest-nation of Israel at his back.

    Please explain why this change took place.

    We MADs believe the answer is plain. You already know what our answer is, so I’ll not belabor it here. I’d like to know what YOU believe is the reason for the change.

    Thank you very much in advance,

    Don

    Posted by Don | September 10, 2017, 5:15 AM
  48. Hi Kelly, Read your summary as I used to be M.A.D. I am modified enough in my position to not be acceptable in their teachings but still have many friends in the movement. If I were to grade your summary, I would have to give it a C- to a D. There are just too many exaggerations and distortions in your piece.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 12, 2017, 1:26 PM
  49. Hi there Ross. Glad to hear you are no longer of the Mid Acts movement. I would like for you to point out the “to many exaggerations and distortions”, thank you.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | September 12, 2017, 7:45 PM
  50. Hi Kelly, Basically, your entire list needs to be scrapped. Now there may be an odd ball here and there that may take some point to a weird conclusion and perhaps we might find some poor confused soul that believes something the way you have presented it but your entire list is categorical and anecdotal and with that you have smeared an entire Christian sect and gone as far as possible to imply cult like characteristics. I’ve seen unvetted crap like that on Wikipedia (something of which I have tried to clean up) and unfair rhetoric on the internet. Now when I went to school a paper was not accepted unless it had proper documented quotes from primary sources or the occasional respected standard source. If I made a statement like : “The majority of…(something or another),” I was required to give the source for any such statistic. At the very least, you could cite a documented source, In fact you mentioned 3 leaders but you did not quote any of their material of which there is actually quite a bit. Not one single quote! And yet you made many categorical statements. You really ought to be ashamed for your scurrilous remarks of which none are substantiated in except by illegitimate hearsay and anecdote! For instance, you write “Majority of those in this movement seem to give the opinion that those who do not use the King James are being corrupted with false doctrines and being led astray by the devil.” Now the KJVo movement is larger than the Grace Movement. The KJVo came into the Grace Movement through a Mr. Jordan and promoted via his Grace School of the Bible materials and no doubt there are a lot of people who have taken those courses and there may be concentrations of KJVo Grace people in some places. I could create fictional statistics too and say 90 percent of the Grace Movement is against KJVo but the difference is that my statement would be nigh the truth. Now you may challenge me on that but it would be unfair to make me list out the far longer list of non KJVo Grace Movement schools, churches, organizations and teachers. And your list just goes downhill from there on a rather unchristian libelous rant.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 13, 2017, 6:56 AM
  51. Ross I want to be clear I have approved your comments though to be quite honest they are ridiculous in substance. The article states “When examining their theology there are some dangers that need to be addressed, and not all of them have all of these exact beliefs, but for the most part most they do.” This article was written around 2003 or so, though it shows 2008 on the site. With what you shared, those guys back then and their sites were clear, direct, and in your face on these views. Now if they have changed, than that is great, I have not looked at their sites in many years. However, I stated not all in the MAD movement have these exact views, but they do have most of them. I have talked with various ones who do not hold to the KJV, that is true, no denying that. However I have talked with a lot who do.

    I challenge you to prove points 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9 as not being accurate. You said this information should be scrapped, is weird conclusion, is anecdotal, unvetted crap, that I should be ashamed for scurrilous remarks, and it is a unchristian liberlous rant, so please prove it. Thank you.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | September 13, 2017, 8:11 PM
  52. 1. Many believe that the only true authorized English version of the Bible is the King James Bible.
    Yes, as do many Baptists and non-denom evangelicals I’ve met.

    ANSWER: This is not remotely unique to mid-Acts dispensationalism. Some believe this, some don’t. And?

    2. They believe that the books written by the Apostle Paul are solely for the body of Christ to live by and for doctrine. They go on to say that all other books are for the body of Christ for informative reasons but not for doctrine, which gets scary in some areas.

    ANSWER: What areas scare you? You need to specify.

    3. They believe that the books of Paul are the only books that teach salvation is by grace through faith in Christ for salvation. They believe that all of the other books of the Bible teach a works salvation, including the other books in the New Testament.

    ANSWER: If one considers water baptism and continued legal observances to be work, then yes, in that sense works were required along with faith during the period in which God was still reaching out to Israel. I remind you that well into Acts, many believing Jews were still zealous for the Law – the very Law to which Paul says members of the Body have died. Did Paul rebuke them for continued Law observance? Nope. As far as Luke records, no. Do you know why he didn’t? MADs do.

    4. They believe that all other books of the Bible other than the ones Paul wrote are for the Jews and Jewish Christians.

    ANSWER: That’s who they wrote to. Your argument here isn’t with MADs, it’s with Peter, James and John.

    5. They believe that they are to follow Paul, for Paul was the first one to preach the true gospel message for salvation in Christ by faith alone.

    ANSWER: You’d have a valid point if you could find one place outside of Paul’s ministry during Acts, or his epistles, where salvation was preached to Jews and Gentiles as equally lost before God, as no different before him and without any distinctions between them, on the basis if faith in Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for our sin and for our justification, without works? Just one will do.

    6. They believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer for today.

    ANSWER: First, MADs are by no means the only ones who believe this. Second, please provide the name of ONE church where we can see people miraculously speak to the lost in foreign languages the speaker never heard before, or can heal blindness and lameness with a touch.

    7. They believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 teaches with the completion of the Bible the gifts are no longer needed for the body of Christ and for the world.

    ANSWER: Again, this position is not unique to MAD. But with regard to tongues (true tongues, not fake glossolalia), Paul said the gift is a sign for unbelievers. There is not one Pentecostal/charismatic today or since Asuza Street who can miraculously preach to the lost of other countries in their own language, which the speaker never heard before. We hear many stories that it happens but, somehow, it never gets caught on video. Odd, that.

    8. They believe the body of Christ is not to be partaking of the Lord’s Supper because that was for the Jewish Christians and is yet for the future with God’s earthly kingdom. They teach that this was not for the body of Christ and is not for us today.

    ANSWER: Again, this is not unique to MAD, but some do, some don’t.

    9. They separate Jewish Christians from the body of Christ and make them two different groups.

    ANSWER: There is no such thing as a Jewish Christian according to Paul. That distinction is gone, along with male/female, free/slave, etc. All are ONE in Him.

    10. They teach that Jewish Christians and believers from the Old Testament will be reigning on the earth through God’s kingdom program and the body of Christ will be living forever in heaven.

    ANSWER: That’s what the Bible says, and we’re not the only ones who believe it.

    11. There are some who teach that if you do not hold to these teachings (Mid Acts Beliefs) you truly are not a Christian and have been deceived through Satan’s lies.

    ANSWER: If you’re not preaching what Paul said to preach: Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:8-9) how ARE you preaching Him? Only alternative is, according to the flesh (Rom 1:3), by which we CANNOT know Him (2 Cor 5:16), which means your preaching would be totally wrong. If you’re not preaching salvation by grace through faith in the DBR, without works, what ARE you preaching? To preach ONE WORK alongside the cross and empty tomb of Christ is a false gospel, and we all know what that means (Gal 1:8-9).

    Thanks for the opportunity to answer your questions.

    Posted by Don | September 14, 2017, 3:51 AM
  53. I don’t doubt that there are in your face sites out there and I would suppose that there are even far more now than in 2003! But that in no way ameliorates your comments on the “majority” belief and to be truly honest then, my comments are spot on!

    #2 “They believe that the books written by the Apostle Paul are solely for the body of Christ to live by and for doctrine.  They go on to say that all other books are for the body of Christ for informative reasons but not for doctrine, which gets scary in some areas.” Now there might be a some simple minded enthusiasts who may give that impression but it is neither charitable nor accurate to paint the movement such.

    ““All of the Bible is for us but not all of the Bible is written to us.”  This is some crafty wording and many people have been deceived into believing un-Biblical doctrines through inaccurate ways of interpretation.” Again an extraordinarily uncharitable comment: “crafty wording” blah blah blah? In fact of matter, it is a carefully nuanced statement which stands in contradiction to careless critics such as yourself. Then in point 4 you make a contradictory statement to point 2! So which is true of them in your opinion, or are you going to paint them as saying it both ways? It just proves the point that you are not taking the time to listen and understand their position. It is also showing your general ignorance of standard dispensational doctrine. The lesson here is to appreciate that the hyper starts the church with Paul’s call to ministry while other stripes of dispensationalist start it elsewhere: with John the Sprinkling Washer, Christ’s Resurrection/Ascension, Pentecost, Acts 9, Acts 11, Acts 13 or Acts 28. Any dispy will point out that if you are not bringing sacrifices to the temple now are we? The command to do so then it follows, is not to us but is rather for our learning. This is really simple and straight forward stuff that almost all Christians know and practice and it is disingenuous to smear them as trying to be deceptive when they are trying to be careful with God’s word.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 6:45 AM
  54. Well Ross, you failed to prove anything other than your own comments. Maybe read what Don just wrote on what MAD believes, he confirmed the information. Have a good day.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | September 14, 2017, 6:48 AM
  55. Your point 3 is true of some hypers but they would be careful I think to put it this way: “They believe that the books of Paul are the only books that teach salvation is by grace through faith ALONE (no works at all) in Christ for salvation.”  What would be more accurate for the majority though is that they believe that all of the other books of the Bible teach a salvation by faith which was required to be demonstrated by works. To be fair some may carelessly describe this as Faith plus Works, but they are not meaning to imply works were required for salvation, just that works were certainly required.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 6:59 AM
  56. I will let Don defend his position, I am not defending it. I am merely schooling you on what they do and do not believe because you are egregiously misinforming your readers.
    Point 4: Here you are implying that the rest of the Bible is NOT FOR the church but rather just for the Jews, yet in point 2 you stated that they believe the rest of the Bible IS FOR the church so you are leaving a confused statement for your readers. Go back to point 2 and read the quote you provided carefully this time. It is typical of all stripes of dispensationalists to carefully explain how they are trying to carefully handle the word of truth.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:10 AM
  57. Point 5. They teach that you are to follow Paul because the Lord in glory instructs them to so. They teach that the revelation he received was unique but furthermore it was given to him by the glorified resurrected Lord from heaven as opposed to Jesus in His humility. And yes the Lord and His apostles taught salvation through faith plus certain works were then also required. The implication is that the latest revelation from Christ the head of the Body supersedes and replaces the old orders (like the so-called “great commission” was replaced by the “greatest commission” revealed through Paul.)

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:20 AM
  58. Point 6. “They believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer for today” This is blatantly false. Mid-Acts (hypers) disps believe that Evangelists and Pastor/Teachers (some separate the last one into two offices) are still functioning gifts for today.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:24 AM
  59. Point 7. “They believe the body of Christ is not to be partaking of the Lord’s Supper because that was for the Jewish Christians” Again blatantly false. Hypers practice the Lord’s Supper, but it must be qualified that they do not hold it as an ordinance. For them it is a memorial of the Lord rather.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:27 AM
  60. Point 8. “They separate Jewish Christians from the body of Christ and make them two different groups.” Again a blatant lie. Every hyper will quote Paul’s statements that the church is made up of the Jews and the Gentiles made one in Christ.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:29 AM
  61. Point 9. “They teach that Jewish Christians and believers from the Old Testament will be reigning on the earth through God’s kingdom program and the body of Christ will be living forever in heaven.” This statement is just sloppy. Again they all believe Jew and Gentile are one in the Body of Christ. It is sloppy because you were not careful to read the quote in point 2 and realize the reverent nuance there. They teach that there is a “kingdom program” based in prophecy and the “Mystery program” not found in prophecy and but rather in a fresh revelation given to Paul only which he was commissioned to administer. The kingdom program is designated as having a earthly destiny and the Mystery program is designated as having an heavenly destiny. The possibility then is open for “Jewish Christians” to be in one or the other program. There are intramural debates on particulars but for most such debates are not important since there are no practical concerns involved.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:42 AM
  62. Point 10. has no significance as virtually every sect has such odd ball enthusiasts among them. Its like saying some of them think they are right and other sects are wrong…duh!

    So now you have been schooled and corrected and the right thing to do as any stand-up Christian would do is to beg forgiveness for your smears of fellow Christians and vet your list anew with truthful and accurate statements if you care to do your readers a service rather than misleading and misguiding them with an unresearched and lazy disingenuous presentation. Otherwise it will reflect poorly on everything else you have done and reflect poorly on your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 14, 2017, 7:52 AM
  63. Mid acts is total confusion, rubbish doctrine. Don’t even entertain it.
    huckleberry2012.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/more-mid-acts-and-hyper-dis-errors/

    huckleberry2012.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/five-fundamental-errors-of-the-mid-acts-dispensationalist-doctrine/

    Posted by Huckleberry2012 | September 14, 2017, 3:42 PM
  64. Thank you, Ross. For an ex-mid Acts person, you are being exceptionally gracious and I appreciate it.

    Posted by Don | September 14, 2017, 4:44 PM
  65. Again, as for the KJV, I know a few MADs who say it is the inspired Word of God in English, but not many. McLean is the loudest that I know of; Jordan is KJO but I don’t know if he’s as hard-core on it as McLean. There are a few others here and there.

    But most of the MADs that I know are like myself, who use the KJV because we consider it the most reliable we have but not because it’s inspired English or literally word for word perfect (someone fetch me a compass). Same applies to millions of Baptists, evangelicals, and others…so I have no idea why Mr. Powers chose, of all possible points of contention, to tee off on MAD starting with the KJO folks who are NOT in a majority among us. Very strange, but it’s his blog. *shrug*

    Posted by Don | September 14, 2017, 5:49 PM
  66. Sir Robert Anderson was friends with E.W. Bullinger and were both pretty much on the same track. Bullinger’s Acts 28 position was not very refined, only his last book reflected the divide inserted between Paul’s pre-prison and prison epistles. Both saw Paul’s unique Gentile ministry and that is why Sir Robert and almost all of Bullinger’s work is pretty much compatible with the Mid-Acts position. Mid-Acts is perfectly logical outcome of the early American Fundamentalist and Dispensational movement. J.C. O’Hair derived his position basically from the teaching of the great American Fundamentalist/Disps of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s. Really to argue with O’Hair was to argue with those teachers. Pauline dispensationalism of the Acts 2 variety is a relatively pure stream of the original Fundamentalist/Dispensationalism which leads back to Darby. Despite Acts 2 Pauline Dispensationalism’s denouncement of Mid-Acts, about the only real difference is where the church is started as far as I can tell. I have not researched it out as to whether Ruckman was fully Acts 2 Pauline besides his other wacky teachings. But he is radical in a number of areas. I believe it was the Way of Life (Cloud) web site that used to point at the Mid-Acts as dangerous hyper-dispensationalism, but now it is Ruckman’s teachings and followers that are labeled as the dangerous hyper-dispensationalists even with the Acts 2 position. I don’t know but that seems to move Mid-Acts closer to the mainstream. As odd as that is, it is not as irritating as Acts 2 mainstream dispensationalists trying to lump Mid-Acts with the Acts 28 position as if they were one and the same. The fact is that they are all part of the dispensational camp. In fact since both Acts 2 and Acts 28 see Acts as more homogenous than Mid-Acts (which sees it as a transition period), their interpretations may have more in common given the difference of looking at it from opposite ends of the dispensational playing field. In any case, Mid-Acts is further from Acts 28 than it is from Acts 2. As I see it, Mid-Acts has poked a lot gaping holes in the Acts 2 position without any answer from the Acts 2 camp and that is most likely a result of the abject ignorance that Acts 2 people have with respect to Mid-Acts. The same is true of the Acts 28 position having poked holes in the Mid-Acts position with not much in answer and again through an ignorance of their position. Despite their legitimate critique of Mid Acts, the problem with the Acts 28 position is that they are left with nothing to work with and what they offer as a solution is built upon what the Bible does not say, in other words, their arguments are completely arguments from silence. They assert the start of the church at Acts 28 or thereafter but when you look there for any dispensational markers or boundary lines, there is nothing but a vast wasteland of nothingness…a virtual theological limbo.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 17, 2017, 3:37 AM
  67. Another interesting development in dispensationalism is that all its original players were staunch Calvinists and as time goes on they seem to get more dilute. In fact the people I associated with (most anyway) were practically Free Grace in their position.

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 17, 2017, 3:43 AM
  68. “but now it is Ruckman’s teachings and followers that are labeled as the dangerous hyper-dispensationalists even with the Acts 2 position. I don’t know but that seems to move Mid-Acts closer to the mainstream.”

    How anyone could consider Ruckman as mid-Acts is beyond me. It’s like saying John R. Rice was mid-Acts. Most likely it’s just the result of ignorant and sloppy critics who aren’t as keen on what they criticize as they think they are, as with the ones who thoughtlessly toss MAD and 28 in the same bucket, say we all follow Darby, worship Paul, cut all non-Pauline writings from the Bible, etc, lies which can be found on many webpages today.

    On second thought, it could also be the work of slandering liars, the same type that all dispensationalists have had to deal with since the beginning, who KNOW we do not worship Paul, etc, but think it’s neat to say we do anyway.

    Posted by Don | September 20, 2017, 3:30 AM
  69. Don, no you missed the point about Ruckman. They are not saying he is mid-acts, but they are labeling him as hyper because: (6) According to hyper-dispensationalism there are different ways of salvation in the Old Testament and during the Tribulation. Peter Ruckman, for example, teaches that men were saved by faith plus works in the Old Testament and that they will be saved by faith plus works in the Tribulation and by works alone in the Millennium. In Millions Disappear: Fact or Fiction? Ruckman says: “If the Lord comes and you remain behind, then start working like a madman to get to heaven, because you’re going to have to. … You must keep the Ten Commandments (all of them, Ecclesiastes 12:13), keep the Golden Rule (1 John 3:10), give your money to the poor, get baptized, take up your cross, hold out to the end of the Tribulation, wait for Jesus Christ to show up at the Battle of Armageddon, and be prepared to die for what you believe. In the Tribulation you cannot be saved by grace alone, like you could before the Rapture.” So judge for yourself. Now the first 5 points were fairly vaguely on point mish-mashing mid-acts and Acts 28. But after point 6, they attack Doug Stauffer as a Ruckmanite and spend more space attacking his book than they spent on the first 5 and maybe even 6 points! Someone had inserted Stauffer in the wiki article as if he was significant and really did not share any info on his position except that he was claiming to be an Acts 1 dispensationalist. When I looked on the web to find out more about him and his teaching, their was nothing at all except for a promotion of his book he was selling for a ridiculous price and that promotion did not give any clues away. He was the only one in the world selling his book that I could find. There wasn’t anyone who seemed to know anything about what he taught or who sponsored him or what if any ministries he had. I suspect and imagine that Way of Life was literally the only one that bought a copy of his book and did a review of it. Obviously Stauffer is a no one of any teaching influence yet Cloud saw fit to spend more space critiquing him and Ruckman than E.W. Bullinger, Cornelius Stam, J.C. O’Hair, Charles Welch, Otis Sellers, A.E. Knoch, and Charles Baker all put together as hypers! (Stam, O’Hair, and Baker are Mid-Acts. Welch, Sellers and Knoch are Acts 28. Beyond that, Knoch was a crazy universalist wack).

    Posted by Ross Purdy | September 20, 2017, 10:19 AM

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  1. Pingback: Questions and Answers on Mid Acts Dispensational Confusion – did Jesus preach the cross for salvation? | Berean Perspective Apologetics - August 29, 2015

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