Christian Essentials, The Trinity Doctrine

What is the Trinity Doctrine? Is The Trinity Biblical? What does the Bible teach?

There are many people who are misinformed on what the doctrine of the Trinity is. There are people and movements that teach the Trinity Doctrine is false and against what the Bible teaches.  The Trinity Doctrine is true and based upon what the Bible teaches, and the purpose of this information is to give a Biblical account of what Christians believe concerning the Trinity doctrine. If you are a Christian our goal is to help clarify and explain the Trinity in a way which you will be edified in your faith and be equipped to share this with others. This is also for those who may be searching for information on what the Trinity is and who want to know if this is truly a Biblical doctrine.

Does the Bible teach the Trinity Doctrine? When reading the Scriptures the method of study most common is using the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament. What that means is that the Old Testament is revealed through the New Testament Scriptures. The Prophecies of the Messiah to come were fulfilled through Jesus the Christ and that was revealed in the New Testament. When a person looks at the Prophecies in the Old Testament they are understand by what the New Testament Scriptures have revealed and instruct us to believe. The New Testament is in fulfillment of what the Old Testament Scriptures teach and foretold. This is for our instruction and guidance. What does the New Testament teach about who God is? What does the Old Testament teach about who God is? These questions will be answered.

Monotheism – The belief in one God

Deuteronomy 4:35-39 “35 “To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him. 36 “Out of the heavens He let you hear His voice to discipline you; and on earth He let you see His great fire, and you heard His words from the midst of the fire. 37 “Because He loved your fathers, therefore He chose their descendants after them. And He personally brought you from Egypt by His great power, 38 driving out from before you nations greater and mightier than you, to bring you in and to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is today. 39 “Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.

The prophet Moses wrote from what he was told from God first hand. He wrote that the LORD is God alone, for there is no other. Christianity affirms the Monotheism of God, God is over heaven and earth, and there is no other God.

Isaiah 44:6 “6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: `I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.”

The prophet Isaiah wrote direct revelation from the LORD of Hosts. He wrote that the LORD is God alone and that He is the first and the last, which means He is the beginning and the end, the Alpha and Omega, the One who is above all. This affirms the Monotheism of God and that there is only one true genuine God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!” (The Shema)

The Monotheism here is combined with a compound unity of God being one. In other words God is one, but not literally in number but in substance. The Hebrew word here is the word ‘Echad’ which means compound unity and an absolute. The Scriptures have this Hebrew word ‘one’ which is ‘Echad’ and is used in other Scriptures in reference to a unity. For example you find the word ‘Echad’ in: Genesis 1:5 (morning and evening one day) & 2:24 (man and woman become one flesh), Ezekiel 37:17. (two sticks are one) Another Hebrew word for one is ‘Yachid’ which means one in number. ‘Yachid’ is used differently in the Scriptures than ‘Echad.’ For example: Genesis 22:2 & 12, Judges 11:34, and Psalms 22:21. These Scriptures address the issue of ‘one’ being of number not of unity. Clearly Deuteronomy 6:4 is not teaching the absolute of God being one in personage, because if that was so than Moses would of used ‘Yachid’ not ‘Echad’.

The Tri-Unity of God – God Identified as three Distinct Persons

The New Testament reveals the truth of God being three distinct persons in the one God. Remember the Old Testament is to be understood through revelations of the New Testament. The New Testament gives the clear understanding of who God is.

The Father is God

Jude 1:1 “Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:”

In Christianity the Father is God, and almost all those who believe in the Bible agree that the Father is God. Many believe that only the Father is God, and that Jesus is not Deity, but the first of God’s creation. Christianity from the beginning of the Church until now affirms the Monotheism of God being both one and Triune.

Jesus is God

John 1:1-3&14 “1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being…14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

The Bible has revealed that Jesus and the Father are distinct persons and that Jesus is by nature God the Creator of all things. Jesus is the Word who became flesh and was with God (The Father) in the beginning (before there was anything created) and was God. (The Son) Jesus was with the Father in verses 1-2. This shows that Christianity does not believe that Jesus is literally the Father, but distinct from the Father and both are God. Jesus according to the apostle John here says 6 key things in these verses. 1) Jesus was in the beginning before anything was created which affirms what Paul wrote in Colossians 1:17, “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.” Both the Apostle John and Paul affirm that Jesus is before ‘ALL’ things and therefore shows that Jesus was not apart of creation, but before all creation and the Cause of all creation as will be shown. 2) Jesus was in the beginning with the Father therefore they are two distinct persons. 3) Jesus is God and was with the Father this shows the Unity of God being not a literal one but a compound Unity (“Echad”). 4) Jesus is the Creator of all things, the Cause and Origin of all things created in the heavens and on earth. Look at what Paul said in Colossians 1:16: “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.” This shows the very Deity of Jesus for the Scripture says in Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone.” The LORD God is the One who created all things ‘alone’ and the Scriptures teach that Jesus is the very One who created all things, thus showing the Tri-Unity of God being one not in number but in Unity. For the Scriptures teach that the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit are all the Cause of creation. (Romans 11:36 Father, John 1:3&Colossians 1:16 Jesus, Psalms 104:30 Holy Spirit, Isaiah 44:24 One Creator) 5) Apart from Jesus ‘NOTHING’ was created proving that Jesus is by nature God. (John 1:3) 6) Jesus who was the Word in the beginning before anything was created, came to this earth and took on flesh and became in the likeness of man. Paul writes in Philippians 2:6-7: “6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.” The Apostle Paul affirms what John wrote of Jesus being God before coming to earth, and taking on flesh. Paul wrote that Jesus existed in the form (Morphe in Greek) of God which means that Jesus was by nature God before He came to earth. Paul writes that Jesus humbled Himself and took on the likeness of men and that Jesus was not prideful to regard His equality with God a thing to be grasped or to cling to but set aside for a time His glory, and became a man in our likeness. That is the Gospel, that Jesus took on flesh and died for us on the cross and rose again that we may have eternal life in His name and faith in Him as our Lord and Savior.

The Holy Spirit is God

One of the things in the Trinity that has been most misunderstood I believe is the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Father and Jesus.

John 16:7-15 “7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”

In these 9 verses Jesus shows without any doubt the distinctions of the Father, Himself, and the Holy Spirit being three distinct personages. Jesus identified Himself 13 different times here, the Father two times, and the Holy Spirit 15 different times. This shows without any doubt the Unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit not being the same person as some wish to teach. Also this shows very clearly that Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit was not an it. Jesus identified the Holy Spirit as being a personality, not a thing. The Holy Spirit is the One who will convict people of sin, and will lead people to Jesus Christ. Some groups believe that God was the Father in the beginning of creation, and then the Father became Jesus in our redemption through the cross, and that Jesus became the Holy Spirit in our regeneration, that is what is known as Oneness Pentecostals or the United Pentecostal Church International. That teaching is heresy, and un-Biblical.

Acts 13:1-4 “1 Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

According to the Church the Holy Spirit was not some mystical force or an it, but a real personality. Here the text is very clear that the Holy Spirit has a will, and said set apart for ‘Me’ and for the work which ‘I’ have called them, making it very clear the Holy Spirit was a real personality.

1 Corinthians 12:11&18 “11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills…18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.”

The Apostle Paul in writing this letter to the Corinthians wrote that the Holy Spirit is the One who gives the gifts to the body of Christ as He wills. And Paul continued by saying it is God who has placed the members in the body and give them various gifts as He desires. This shows that Paul firmly believed that the Holy Spirit was by nature God.

Acts 5:3-4 “3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

The Apostle Peter gives a very fascinating revelation here concerning the Holy Spirit. 1) The Holy Spirit can be lied to, which only persons can be lied to thus showing the personality of the Holy Spirit. 2) Peter says they have not lied to men, but to God! Peter says they lied to God the Holy Spirit and equates them together in the same context.

Overview of the Trinity

The Trinity is very Biblical and is not illogical or confusing. Some say “Just take it by faith”. But the fact is that God has revealed Himself to us through His Word, through His presence in the Old Testament, and through Jesus in the New Testament, and through the Holy Spirit convicting us of sin and leading us to Jesus Christ for salvation. The Bible teaches the Trinity just as it teaches Monotheism even without either word being in the Scriptures. The Trinity can be understood. Some Christians understand more than others just like some know more about outer space than other people do. Just because some people know more about outer space does not mean outer space does not exist, and the same is of the Trinity. If a person seeks the Word of God, and seeks to know for sure, and in time they will grow understanding. Those who reject the Trinity have not received spiritual understanding and guidance from the Holy Spirit. True revelation comes from the Holy Spirit, and it is not until they are born again that they can comprehend these things: “12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1Corinthians 2:12-14)

Analogies of the Trinity

The Trinity has been compared to many things in nature: What will you see below are things that are triune yet one in nature. This information is for things that we do understand that are in our grasp that help us understand spiritual things that pertain to the Tri-Unity of God.

Bird’s Egg: Besides the germ and yolk, the eggs of birds contain an albuminous mass, the white, which is an additional source of nourishment for the developing chick. The egg is enclosed in a tough double membrane, the membrana putaminis, which in turn is covered by a hard, three-layered shell chiefly composed of calcium carbonate. The shell protects the egg from the weight of the parents’ bodies during incubation. All birds, with the exception of the mound birds, incubate their eggs by body heat.

There is an analogy for the egg that shows the three in one view of the Trinity. You separate the shell, the white, and the yolk, and put each of them into three different bowls. How many eggs you got? One, but they are separated by three distinct parts, yet still one in essence and nature. This is just like the Trinity being one God yet three distinct persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Shamrock: Common name for any of several trifoliate clovers native to Ireland. The shamrock was originally chosen as the national emblem of Ireland because of the legend that Saint Patrick used the plant to illustrate the doctrine of the Trinity. Most shamrocks, particularly the small-leaved white clover, have been considered by the Irish as good-luck symbols since earliest times, and this superstition has persisted in modern times among people of many nationalities. Shamrocks or various representations of the plant are worn by celebrants on Saint Patrick’s Day, March 17 of each year. The hop clover is widely accepted as the original shamrock picked by Saint Patrick.

Fruit: Fruits vary widely in physical appearance, but their basic structure is the same. The ripened ovary wall that forms the fruit is composed of three layers, which can be thick or thin, dry or moist, fused or separate. The outermost layer is called the exocarp; the middle layer is the mesocarp; and the inner layer, the endocarp. These three regions together are called the pericarp. A peach that has been cut in half clearly reveals these layers: the soft, fuzzy skin is the exocarp, the juicy, meaty part of the peach is the mesocarp, and the pit, which encases the seed, is the endocarp.

Water: Water is the only substance that occurs at ordinary temperatures in all three states of matter, that is, as a solid, a liquid, and a gas. As a solid, or ice, it is found as glaciers and ice caps, on water surfaces in winter, as snow, hail, and frost, and as clouds formed of ice crystals. It occurs in the liquid state as rain clouds formed of water droplets, and on vegetation as dew; in addition, it covers three-quarters of the surface of the earth in the form of swamps, lakes, rivers, and oceans. As gas, or water vapor, it occurs as fog, steam, and clouds. Atmospheric vapor is measured in terms of relative humidity, which is the ratio of the quantity of vapor actually present to the greatest amount possible at a given temperature.

Space: Dimension, in geometry, a property of space. In common experience the world is three-dimensional. Three measures breadth, width, and depth are needed to define a volume.

What other Groups teach about the Trinity

Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Trinity is defined as three gods in one. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, all three equal in power, substance and eternity.” (Let God Be True, page 101, 1946

Mormons: “Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other.” (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Godhead)

Oneness Pentecostals: “In distinction to the doctrine of the Trinity, the UPCI holds to a oneness view of God. It views the Trinitarian concept of God, that of God eternally existing as three distinctive persons, as inadequate and a departure from the consistent and emphatic biblical revelation of God being one.” Oneness Pentecostals teach that God was the Father in creation, the Father became the Son in redemption, and the Son became the Holy Spirit in regeneration. Three different modes or manifestations of God, not three distinct persons. Quote, “God is manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration.” These references are found at the official UPCI website. The link is http://www.upci.org/about.asp

Does the Bible teach Trinity Doctrine? Yes, the Trinity is Biblical, it is Scriptural, and it is truth. God is said to be One God in Deuteronomy 6:4. God is said to be the only God from all eternity and no others were made or formed in Psalms 90:2 and Isaiah 43:10. Looking at Genesis 2:24 we see a Biblical way to see how the word ‘one’ can be used and applied within what the context says. The Bible says there is only one eternal God and has been identified through three distinct personages. The Father is God in Jude 1, Jesus is God in John 1:1&14, and the Holy Spirit is God in Acts 5:3-4.

Discussion

30 thoughts on “What is the Trinity Doctrine? Is The Trinity Biblical? What does the Bible teach?

  1. That’s alot of reading Kelly!

    Posted by Jordan Graff | February 2, 2012, 9:22 PM
  2. I see us, as people, 3 circles. 1st circle – small-“spirit” (our connection with God), the 2nd medium, -“soul”(mind, will, and emotions),the 3rd large circle -“body”( our flesh)
    Even though, this can’t compare to who God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are, it helps me understand they are One. Sort of like, me, myself, and I. Three different words, but one person. God is spirit, the Holy Spirit- He come to us( me, anyway)in a still small voice, if I will stop to listen, it changes my mind about something or make me exam – is this me , my own way? Because we need to be aware of how the things we do will effect others. Then, as we know , Jesus came to earth , in the flesh. Ive never really studied on it. Maybe this way isnt right, good time to start.studing that is

    Posted by Donna 1op | February 3, 2012, 4:05 PM
  3. Hi Donna, glad to see you are making your way around our site. I understand what you are sharing. The one thing with what you have shared is that can appear and sound oneness in theology. Here is what I mean.

    Me, myself, and I, three different areas/manifestations, but one in person. The problem is that Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. When Jesus was baptized He was here on the earth, the Father spoke from heaven, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus in the likeness of a dove. When Jesus prayed, Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven. In the book of Revelation we have places where John sees both the Father and Jesus in heaven, distinct from one another. (Rev. 3:21/ Rev. 5:8)

    I do not believe that you are intentionally sounding oneness in how you shared your view, but that is a common perspective within oneness theology. The Tri-Unity of God is that God is one in nature not in person, and that God is unified and revealed through three persons known as the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    For some Christians this understanding comes quicker to understand and for some it is a longer process. BTW I appreciate what you have shared on the other post concerning Catholicism and glad you were able to contribute.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 3, 2012, 11:10 PM
  4. Hello Jordan, glad you made it over here. Yes, it can be a lot of reading. This was written many years ago, I actually need to give it an update because there is much more on this that I plan to share for those whom are searching and studying this. I hope that you were able to read it and that it was helpful for you.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | February 3, 2012, 11:12 PM
  5. No, you are right. I didn’t mean oneness. I believe God is present everywhere. He sees all things , knows all things, and has a plan, reason, and purpose for everyone. I believe Jesus completed everything that was required by God. He took on all the sins of the whole world, before and after His coming. Also, that when God looks at us, He sees Christ’s sacrifice.Christ’s pure sinless blood, that cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We must ask for forgiveness for all our sins,but the price is already paid in full.I believe the Holy Spirit is actually a He, a”person” with feelings. He speaks to us, teaches us,leads,reminds us. He searchs the depths of God, only doing His will, revealing to us God’s way.We can greive Him. The Holy Spirit lives in our heart. But to pull or put it together, as I think you are asking, I can’t. That’s the reason I enjoy this site.It makes me put my thoughts, beliefs,and what I have learned together. Something thats very hard for me to do.

    Posted by Donna 1op | February 4, 2012, 9:29 AM
  6. This site also, makes me go deeper into God’s word, and teachs.

    Posted by Donna 1op | February 4, 2012, 9:33 AM
  7. The easiest way to defend the trinity is to compare it with what the Bible says about God. If the two agree 100%, then that should confirm that the trinity is based squarely on Scripture. But is that the case? Well, judge for yourself:

    1. THE BIBLE says the Father–a single person–is the “only true God.” (John 17:3).

    1A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says that “every Person (of the trinity) BY HIMSELF [is] God.” That’s THREE GODS!

    2. THE BIBLE says that “for us there is one God, the Father.” (1 Cor. 8:6)

    2A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says “we worship one God IN TRINITY.”

    3. THE BIBLE says the “Father is greater…” (John 14:28)

    3A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says: “In this trinity, NONE is greater…”

    4. THE BIBLE says Jesus is the Son of God. (John 20:31)

    4A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says “Jesus IS God,” which makes him a different God from the “one God in trinity.”

    5. THE BIBLE says the “Father is greater…” (John 14:28)

    5A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE say that “the whole three persons [of the trinity] are “co-equal.”

    6. THE BIBLE says the holy spirit is not God, but a possession of God and that he gives it to deserving ones. As 1 Thess. 4:8 says: “Therefore, whoever disregards this, disregards not a human being but God, who (also) gives HIS holy Spirit to you.”

    6A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says that “the holy spirit IS God.” However, A Catholic Dictionary says: “On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power.” It adds: “The majority of New Testament texts reveal God’s spirit as someTHING, not someONE.”

    7. THE BIBLE says that the Father is the ONLY person that “the true worshipers” (Christians) should worship. (John 4:23)

    7A. THE TRINITY DOCTRINE says: “The trinity in unity is to be worshiped.”

    So, do the Bible and the trinity doctrine agree on who God is? Absolutely not! And in the words of the New Catholic Encyclopedia, it says that the trinity “is NOT directly and immediately the Word of God.”

    Posted by Carl | October 30, 2012, 12:26 AM
  8. Does the egg analogy fit the trinity doctrine’s description of the triune deity as being three persons making up one God? Let’s see, okay?

    1. The egg represents God.

    A. The shell represents the Father.
    B. The Son represents the yoke.
    C. The holy spirit repesents the egg white.

    Now, the trinity doctrine says:

    1. …”we worship one God in trinity,” consisting of the Father (the shell), the Son (the yoke), and the holy spirit (the egg white).
    2. …”the Father is God (the egg, NOT the shell).
    3. …”the Son is God (the egg, NOT the yoke).
    4. …”the holy spirit is God (the egg, NOT the egg white).
    5. …the Father, Son, and holy spirit “are not three Gods (three eggs), but one God (one egg).”

    As you can see, according to the egg analogy, there are four eggs. And three of the four eggs are actually just one egg.

    There is nothing about the trinity that makes sense.

    Posted by Carl | October 30, 2012, 12:58 AM
  9. Kelly Powers uses the water analogy to explain the trinity, but does it work? Not a chance! Consider.

    According to the trinity doctrine, it takes a combination of three co-equal, co-eternal persons to make God. After all, “trinity” means “a unity of three [persons].”

    Now, if you combine ice (H20) with liquid water (H20) with water vapor (H20), do you get something different from H20? NO! So, how does the water analogy fit the trinity? Answer: it doesn’t.

    Posted by Carl | October 30, 2012, 1:15 AM
  10. Hello there Mr. Carl. I see you have made a few comments. Thanks for taking the time to come and share, even though I don’t agree with what you have shared.

    Now you have attempted to discredit what was shared by me concerning water and the connection to the Tri-Unity of God.

    I find what you said really, really, really interesting. You said if someone combines ice, liquid water, and water vapour, do they get something different from H20? You said, no! Funny, I agree, that is the connection if one takes the type to reason things out from a Biblical and logical perspective. The Tri-Unity is three personages unified and identified as being God, that is very accurate. However, your comment about it does not disprove anything, in fact it helps in regards to the Tri-Unity being accurate.

    The point of what was shared in this article was that there are many things in our existence that are triune in nature which we can understand, and that it is not impossible to conceive.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | October 30, 2012, 8:23 PM
  11. Hello Mr. Carl. Your comments about the egg have no matter of logic to disprove the Tri-Unity either and your math is way off. You have missed the point, whether you realize it or not. The point is the egg as a whole is an egg, and within the egg there is by nature the shell, the yoke, and white. The egg by nature is triune yet one.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | October 30, 2012, 8:28 PM
  12. Mr. Carl. I will reply to what you have shared here but if you wish for this to be a discussion I would say to you to reply to what was written in this article with the Scriptures before you go on a mission to post new stuff. That way if what I have shared in this article is wrong, you can show the world that is the case.

    Reply to #1

    Where does the Bible say there is only 1 personage who is God? Does not say that in John 17:3.

    Since the Bible clearly identifies Jesus as being called God in numerous places, what kind of God does that make Jesus? Would that mean Jesus is a false God since according to you only the Father is identified as being the true God? (Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, John 20:28, Revelation 22:12-20)

    How do you understand Genesis 19:24 with Amos 4:11?

    Gen. 19:24 Then Jehovah made it sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens, upon Sod′om and upon Go‧mor′rah (NWT)

    Amos 4:11 ‘I caused an overthrow among ​YOU​ people, like God’s overthrow of Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah. And ​YOU​ came to be like a log snatched out of [the] burning; but ​YOU​ did not come back to me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah (NWT)

    – Gen. 19:24 the Jehovah/LORD rained fire and brimstone “from” the Jehovah/LORD out of heaven.
    – Amos 4:10-11 the speaker is Jehovah/LORD and speaks in the second personage with God being the one who over threw Sodom and Gomorrah.
    – According to the Bible there was two personages identified as being called LORD/Jehovah in that context

    Reply to #2

    Your view of 1 Corinthians 8:6 is flawed and illogical if you take what you said to the next step.

    1 Cor. 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him (NWT)

    Consider also Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ (NWT)

    So is the Father not Lord? According to your logic this must be the case! It is important to understand the context of what Paul was stating. Within the Greeks culture they had the view that there were many upon many gods, and their main one was called their Father. Within their culture they also had many lords. Paul was contrasting their culture views with a Biblical perspective. Paul was stating there is only one Father, not many as they claimed. Paul was stating there is only one Lord whom they were to follow, that being Jesus.

    If your view is right as you have been taught, then that changes the identity of the Father and takes away from Him and elevates Jesus higher than the Father with Jesus being the only Owner and Lord. I hope you see the logical error in what you have shared.

    Reply #3

    John 14:28 YOU​ heard that I said to ​YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to ​YOU. If ​YOU​ loved me, ​YOU​ would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am (NWT)

    Of course Jesus would say this, cause Jesus came in the form of a man, in our likeness and Jesus humbled Himself. That is what Jesus talks about in John 17:5 and what Paul makes reference to in Philippians 2:5-8. This in no way states that Jesus is not identified as God. The context of John 8:53-59 the Jews asked Jesus “whom” He claimed to be and Jesus said before Abraham came into existence/born, I am. (literal/Kingdom InterLinear Translation) In verse 59 they picked up stones to stone Jesus! Why did they want to kill Jesus? What law did Jesus just violate? The only logical reason is because they believed Jesus used the name of God in blasphemy as Lev. 24:16 states.

    Reply #4

    Yes Jesus is the Son of God, no disagreement there. In fact to the Jews whom Jesus would of encountered Jesus in claiming to be the Son of God would of meant that He was claiming equality with the Father. Have you not read John 5:18-23? They wanted to stone Jesus for claiming to be the Son of God and what did Jesus do? Did Jesus say, hey wait guys, you misunderstood what I said! No, Jesus went on to say not only was He the Son, but that all judgment was His and all were to honor the Son “even” as they honor the Father, equality.

    18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to ​YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that ​YOU​ may marvel.2 1 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him (NWT)

    Also, for Jesus claiming to be the Son of God was a Messianic claim in which the One to come was now here. (Psalms 2, Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 40:3-5, etc)

    Jesus is called and identified as the Son of Man in many Scriptures. Does that mean Jesus had a biological earthly father? The title was Messianic and was for the Messiah, that is how they would of understood that. (Daniel 7) In Matthew 12:8 Jesus said that the Son of Man (Jesus) is Lord of the Sabbath! Who is Lord of the Sabbath? From what I read in the Old Testament the Sabbath belongs to Jehovah/LORD.

    Reply to #5 (same as #3)

    Already dealt with in #3!

    Reply #6

    Don’t care what a Catholic Dictionary says about Holy Spirit or anything in regards to my Christian faith, I am not Catholic nor is the Tri-Unity from Catholicism, but from God’s Word!

    Explain how the Holy Spirit is not identified as a personage in the following verses:

    John 16:7-14 7 Nevertheless, I am telling ​YOU​ the truth, It is for ​YOUR​ benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to ​YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to ​YOU. 8 And when that one arrives he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: 9 in the first place, concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and ​YOU​ will behold me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 12 “I have many things yet to say to ​YOU, but ​YOU​ are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide ​YOU​ into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to ​YOU​ the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to ​YOU.

    In these verses Jesus makes reference to Holy Spirit 9 times as being an identity, a personality, not a thing!

    Acts 13:2 As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar′na‧bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.

    In this verse we see the Holy Spirit being the One whom called and set apart Barnabas and Saul (Paul) for the work which He called them to do!

    Reply #7

    John 4:23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him

    Where does it say in John 4:23 that “only” the Father is to be worshipped?

    The Greek word for “worship” in John 4:23 is “proskuneo” which means to bow down before, to worship, to prostrate.

    In Matthew 4:10 Jesus said that “worship” should only be to the LORD. The Greek word there is “proskuneo”, the exact same word as in John 4:23. Why is that important? Cause in Matthew 14:33 and Matthew 28:17 Jesus received worship and did not stop them nor rebuke them! In fact there were other places that this took place and Jesus never stopped them!

    What is of interest as well is in my 1969 New World Translation with the Kingdom Interlinear Translation edition and in my 1970 NWT shows Hebrews 1:6 stating that the Father instructed the angels to worship Jesus. The same Greek word “proskuneo”.

    So, it seems that your view on only the Father to be worshipped is wrong. In fact since Jesus was worshipped and is to be worshipped, and the Bible states only the LORD is to be worshipped, that must mean Jesus is LORD along with the Father. In Hebrews 10:15-18 we have the Holy Spirit being called LORD which was a direct reference to the Old Testament Scriptures from Jeremiah 31:33-34 and that this was in reference to the Holy Spirit speaking. So all three would be in accord to be worshipped Scripturally.

    Conclusion:

    I have replied to your rant. If you wish to post more you can either reply to the Scriptures in this article or to my replies to you. Thanks for sharing and I hope you take the time to examine what I have shared.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | October 30, 2012, 9:51 PM
  13. Carl, I got your last reply concerning water perspectives. You basically said the same thing again, which is a waste of time, thus no need to post. What you shared really is not the thrust of what I have shared, so instead of side stepping Biblical issues, lets deal with the Scriptures.

    I do want to allow you to share your view, but let’s focus on the Word and your first list of reasons why you don’t believe and then my replies.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 5, 2012, 5:41 PM
  14. Carl, unless you deal with what I shared to you in response to your list of 7 so called objections, which I provided Scriptures and questions for you to reply to, your silly posts will not be published.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 5, 2012, 8:40 PM
  15. At the risk of getting another post deleted, let’s discuss your “Reply #3.” At John 14:28, Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” However, the trinity doctrine says: “In this trinity, none is greater or less than another.” In your reply, all you did was try to put a spin on what Jesus meant when he said that “the Father is greater than That still doesn’t address the contradiction of the trinity doctrine, which says that “NONE is greater.” So, tell me, if it’s Biblical that among the Father, Son, and holy spirit that NONE is greater, WHERE does the Bible say that? NO WHERE!!

    According to you, Jesus said his Father was greater because Jesus came to earth “in the form of a man.” If that’s true, then while Jesus was in the form of a man, he was inferior to the other two persons of the trinity who NEVER were in the forms of men. In other words, as long as Jesus remained in the form of a man, the triune godhead ceased to exist, since, for a time, the three were no longer co-equal.

    You also said: “In [John 8:59] they picked up stones to stone Jesus! Why did they want to kill Jesus? What law did Jesus just violate? The only logical reason is because they believed Jesus used the name of God in blasphemy as Lev. 24:16 states.

    What was the REAL reason that JESUS gave for the Jews wanting to kill him? Was it because he had committed blasphemy by claiming to be God? No. To quote Jesus, he said: “You are trying to kill me because I told you the truth, which I heard from God.” (John 8:40) So, the REAL reason why the Jews wanted to kill Jesus was because he delivered to them a messaage FROM God that they didn’t want to hear. There isn’t a single verse in John 8 that says the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy. That’s YOU who said that. Just in case you forgot, the Jewish Sanhedrin DID accuse Jesus of blasphemy, but NOT because he claimed to be God. Jesus was convicted of blasphemy for claiming to be the SON of God. (Mark 14:61-63)

    You said that in “the context of John 8:53-59 the Jews asked Jesus “whom” He claimed to be and Jesus said before Abraham came into existence/born, I am.” Does the context of John 8:53-59 suggest that Jesus claimed to be God? It couldn’t be, since, according to the trinity doctrine, God is not a single person. Instead, he’s a “a unity of THREE [persons].” Jesus is only one person. So, tell me, what does the context of John 8:53-59 tell YOU? That a single person was claiming to be a three-person deity all by himself?

    One other thing, according to you, Jesus used God’s name when he said “I AM” at John 8:58? Sorry, but “I AM” is a title; God’s name is Jehovah. As Ex. 3:15 says: “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, JEHOVAH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

    Now that you know that the “I AM” of Ex. 3:14 and Jehovah of Ex. 3:15 are one in the same person, it’s time to connect the dots. Did you notice at Ex. 3:15 that it says that Jehovah is called the “God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” If Jesus is the “I AM,” then he is also the “God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” But is he? Not according to Peter. At Acts 3:13, he addressed a group of Jews, saying: “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.” So, is Jesus the “God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? Or is he God’s Servant?

    One last thing. Upon Jesus’ return to heaven, he still was not equal to his Father. As 1 Cor. 11:3 says: “The head of the Christ is God.” 1 Cor. 3:23 says: “You belong to Christ. Christ belongs to God.”

    Take it or leave God is not a trinity.

    Posted by Carl | November 7, 2012, 11:00 PM
  16. In your “Reply #7, you said: “The Bible states only the LORD is to be worshipped, that must mean Jesus is LORD along with the Father.” Your statement gives testimony to the fact that you not only don’t know what the Bible says, but you also don’t know what the trinity doctrine says either. According to the trinity doctrine, “the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord.” In other words, the trinity doctrine includes the holy spirit in the “one Lord,” not just the Father and Son. So, tell me, where in the Bible did Jesus tell his followers to worship the Father, Son, and holy spirit as the “one Lord”? NOWHERE!

    Posted by Carl | November 8, 2012, 11:43 AM
  17. You said: “Jesus in claiming to be the Son of God would of meant that He was claiming equality with the Father.” How soon we forget. Earlier, you said the Father was greater than Jesus because Jesus came in the form of a man. So, tell me, what form was Jesus in when you said that he claimed equality with the Father by calling himself the Son of God? And tell me this: How could the human Jesus claim equality with his Father when he (Jesus) was “made a little lower than angels.” (Heb. 2:9) Perhaps you can explain how the human Jesus could be equal to his Father while being lower than the angels at the same time. I would love to hear your Bible-based answer.

    Posted by Carl | November 8, 2012, 4:56 PM
  18. In your “Reply #4,” you said: “Within the Greeks culture they had the view that there were many upon many gods, and their main one was called their Father.” WRONG AGAIN! Look at 1 Cor. 8:5, 6. There, Paul said: “There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. But we know that there is only one God, the Father.” Does Paul say here that among the many pagan Greek deities that their chief god was known as “their Father”? NO! After saying that the Greeks had many so-called gods that they worshiped, Paul separated himself and his fellow Christians by saying: “But WE know that there is only one God, the Father.” And even before Christianity was established, the Jews looked upon a single person–the Father–as being their God. For instance, at John 8:41, the Jews said to Jesus: “We have one Father, God.” And Jesus didn’t deny that fact. In reply to the Jews, Jesus said: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.” So, John 17:3 and 1 Cor. 8:6 agree that the Father is the “one God,” the “only true God.” And that same “Father” is also the one that is Jesus’ God. As Paul said at Col. 1:3: “We thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always when we pray for you.”

    So, is the trinity the “one God” or is it a single person–Jehovah–the “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”? (1 Pet. 1:3)

    Posted by Carl | November 9, 2012, 2:49 AM
  19. Unless you have anything else to say, this will be my last post. Nothing you said in your seven replies came close to refuting how the Bible and the trinity disagree. Both Catholic and non-catholic references agree that the trinity is not a Biblical doctrine. Consider just a few of those references:

    “The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence” (Karl Barth, cited in the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology)

    “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word Trinity appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord” (Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in our Christianity, G.P. Putnam and Sons, 1928, p. 198)

    “Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds” (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 2, p. 84)

    “The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the TRINITY idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the…Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, coequal and united in One” (Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 197)

    I’m done.

    Posted by Carl | November 9, 2012, 2:59 AM
  20. Hello Carl.

    You quoted: “The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence” (Karl Barth, cited in the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology)

    “Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds” (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 2, p. 84)

    My reply: Did you know there is much more to that quote? You might want to actually read the source and know what is says before you quote something in error. Here is the full quote.

    “The Trinity. The NT does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. “The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself. And the other express declaration is also lacking, that God is God thus and only thus, i.e. as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These two express declarations, which go beyond the witness of the Bible, are the twofold content of the Church doctrine of the Trinity” (Karl Barth, CD, 1, 1, 437). It also lacks such terms as trinity. (Lat. trinitas which was coined by Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 3; 11 ; 12 etc.) and homoousios which featured in the Creed of Nicea (325) to denote that Christ was of the same substance as the Father (cf. J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 1968, 113, 233-7). But the NT does contain the fixed, three-part formula of 2 Cor. 13:13 (EVV 14) in which God, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit are mentioned together (cf. I Cor. 12:4 ff.). The Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit occurs only in the baptismal formula in Matt. 28:19. The later addition, I Jn. 5:8 (in Lat. texts from the 6th cent.), contains the triad, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit (cf. E. Stauffer, TDNT III 108 f.). An extension of the triadic form in which, however, the important element is “the one God,” “the one Lord” and “the one Spirit,” appears in Eph. 4:4 ff. Gal. 4:4 ff. does not, strictly speaking, present a formula. It sets out the action of God in salvation history, placing God, Christ and the Holy Spirit in their right relationship: God first sends the Son and then the Spirit of his Son to continue the work of Jesus on earth. On the other hand, God and Christ especially are closely connected in two-part formulae: “one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (I Cor. 8:6). “one God … and one mediator between God and men” (I Tim. 2:5). In this connection Matt. 23:8-10 must also be mentioned, where Jesus draws the disciples’ attention to the fact that they have one master (himself) and one God in heaven. In all these statements the two facts, that God and Christ belong together and that they are distinct, are equally stressed, with the precedence in every case due to God, the Father, who stands above Christ. (On the formulae see E. Stauffer, New Testament Theology, 1955, 235-57, J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Creeds, 19721, 6-29; V. F. Neufeld, The Earliest Christian Confessions, 1963.) A close relationship exists also between Christ and the Holy —> Spirit. Thus Paul can say outright that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17). In John’s Gospel the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete, —> Advocate) appears with “certain independence” (E. Stauffer, TDNT 111 107). But in his work he is bound to the exalted Christ (Jn. 16:14; “He will take what is mine”). Christ and the Holy Spirit are in an interchangeable relationship. But even here there is no strict, dogmatic assertion. Although the Spirit is distinguished from Christ and subordinated to him, it can be said in I Jn. 2:1 that Christ is the Paraclete with the Father. All this underlines the point that primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early church.” (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Volume 2, page 84)

    Carl, as you can see when reading the full source there is more than what you posted. You took a little piece out to fit your agenda and perspective. This reference proves nothing against the Trinity understanding, though it gives some reasons of how this understanding came together, but not saying it was not accurate at all. And on a side note Karth Barth said, “The basis of theology is thus the living Trinity Itself. The Word of God is not a thing or an object, but God Himself speaking. The Word of God has a threefold form: the Son as the Word of the Father. Scripture as the commissioned witness to that Word, and the Christian proclamation.” (New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, page 107, 1978)

    Carl you quoted: Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word Trinity appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord” (Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in our Christianity, G.P. Putnam and Sons, 1928, p. 198)

    “The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the TRINITY idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the…Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, coequal and united in One” (Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 197)

    My reply: Are you even familiar with Arthur Weigall? Why would you cite a person who does not even believe in basic Christianity? Here is what he also said in that book.

    “No Biblical scholar of any standing to-day, whether he be a clergyman, a minister, or a layman, accepts the entire New Testament as authentic; and all admit that many errors, misunderstandings, and absurdities have crept into the story of Christ’s life and other matters.…In regard to the Virgin Birth….It seems clear, therefore, that the story was not known, or at any rate was not accepted, before A.D. 100, that is to say, a whole century after the date of the event it records.…if Joseph was not then thought to be the father of Jesus it is difficult to understand why the pedigree was given at all.…The growth of such a story may well be understood, for tales of the births of pagan gods….He had not been much hurt by being crucified.…no faith would be worth consideration which based itself merely on the apparent coming to life of a dead body.…in the end His mortal body must have died and returned to dust.” (The Paganism in Our Christianity, 1928, pp. 30-31, 42-43, 44, 94-95)

    Carl would you also site these things to be true from what he taught as well? This so called reference denies the New Testament, denies the Virgin birth, and Jesus’ Resurrection!

    Carl, I would encourage you to to some more research in these areas to see that what I have shared is accurate.

    I’m not done…

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 9, 2012, 9:33 AM
  21. Carl said: In your “Reply #4,” you said: “Within the Greeks culture they had the view that there were many upon many gods, and their main one was called their Father.” WRONG AGAIN!

    My reply: Carl, that was actually #2, not #4! Carl I cited Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ (NWT)

    Carl is Jesus the “only” Lord? Is the Father not Lord? According to Jude 1:4 Jesus is the only Owner and Lord, that must mean the Father is not our Owner and Lord, right? What was the Greek’s culture during the days of the early church? Please reply to these things I have shared.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 9, 2012, 9:46 AM
  22. Carl said: How soon we forget. Earlier, you said the Father was greater than Jesus because Jesus came in the form of a man. So, tell me, what form was Jesus in when you said that he claimed equality with the Father by calling himself the Son of God? And tell me this: How could the human Jesus claim equality with his Father when he (Jesus) was “made a little lower than angels.” (Heb. 2:9) Perhaps you can explain how the human Jesus could be equal to his Father while being lower than the angels at the same time. I would love to hear your Bible-based answer.

    My reply: Carl, you did not address the context of John 5:18-23. Why did they want to kill Jesus? It seems in verse 18 that they were hearing Jesus claiming equality with the Father by calling Himself the Son. So how come Jesus did not correct their misunderstanding? How come Jesus did not reword His statements? How come Jesus said that all are to honor the Son “just as” they honor the Father? That would indicate that Jesus knew what they were believing and affirmed it even more! Please explain that.

    18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to ​YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that ​YOU​ may marvel.2 1 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him (NWT)

    Carl who is coming in Isaiah 9:6? “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (NWT)

    Carl who is coming in Isaiah 40:3-5? “3 Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, ​YOU​ people! MAKE​ the highway for our God through the desert plain straight. 4 Let every valley be raised up, and every mountain and hill be made low. And the knobby ground must become level land, and the rugged ground a valley plain. 5 And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be revealed, and all flesh must see [it] together, for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken [it].” (NWT)

    Carl what did John the Baptist proclaim? “1 [The] beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ: 2 Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way;) 3 listen! someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, ​YOU​ people, make his roads straight,’” 4 John the baptizer turned up in the wilderness, preaching baptism [in symbol] of repentance for forgiveness of sins. 5 Consequently all the territory of Ju‧de′a and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem made their way out to him, and they were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather girdle around his loins, and was eating insect locusts and wild honey. 7 And he would preach, saying: “After me someone stronger than I am is coming; I am not fit to stoop and untie the laces of his sandals. 8 I baptized ​YOU​ with water, but he will baptize ​YOU​ with holy spirit.””

    You need to address these Scriptures!

    As to Jesus being human, lower than the angels, and still claiming equality with the Father, that is easy. Jesus is the Creator of all things, all things! “All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:3 NWT) Jesus was the Word that became flesh (John 1:14), Jesus for a time took on our likeness, submitted Himself fully to the Father and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was flesh, angels are angels and glorified, thus Jesus was lower cause He was in the likeness of a human. That is not hard to understand at all. Though Jesus was in our likeness, Jesus being the One sent, the LORD come in the flesh, had authority equal with the Father but also was showing us example to follow in humility. Jesus is perfect, without sin, Jesus was King from all eternity and Jesus showed us the perfect example of being humble and a servant, that we are to follow after. Once you realize that Jesus is true Lord, Creator, LORD to come and did, and how He humbled Himself for mankind and went to the cross and rose again that sinners could repent and be saved from all their sins, and have become a new creation in Christ Jesus, then these things will be spiritually understood.

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 9, 2012, 10:15 AM
  23. Carl said: In your “Reply #7, you said: “The Bible states only the LORD is to be worshipped, that must mean Jesus is LORD along with the Father.” Your statement gives testimony to the fact that you not only don’t know what the Bible says, but you also don’t know what the trinity doctrine says either. According to the trinity doctrine, “the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord.” In other words, the trinity doctrine includes the holy spirit in the “one Lord,” not just the Father and Son. So, tell me, where in the Bible did Jesus tell his followers to worship the Father, Son, and holy spirit as the “one Lord”? NOWHERE!

    My reply: Carl, you did not address what was shared concerning Jesus and Him being worshipped. Here it is again and I would like you to reply to this information.

    Question? Where does it say in John 4:23 that “only” the Father is to be worshipped?

    The Greek word for “worship” in John 4:23 is “proskuneo” which means to bow down before, to worship, to prostrate.

    In Matthew 4:10 Jesus said that “worship” should only be to the LORD. The Greek word there is “proskuneo”, the exact same word as in John 4:23. Why is that important? Cause in Matthew 14:33 and Matthew 28:17 Jesus received worship and did not stop them nor rebuke them! In fact there were other places that this took place and Jesus never stopped them!

    Question? Why didn’t Jesus rebuke those whom were worshipping/proskuneo Him?

    What is of interest as well is in my 1969 New World Translation with the Kingdom Interlinear Translation edition and in my 1970 NWT shows Hebrews 1:6 stating that the Father instructed the angels to worship Jesus. The same Greek word “proskuneo”.

    Hebrews 1:6 states “But when he again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels worship him.” (KIT/NWT 1969, NWT 1970)

    Question? Why does the NWT have the word “worship” in reference to Jesus? Why would God instruct the angels to worship Jesus?

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 9, 2012, 10:24 AM
  24. Carl in other things stated I have already addressed so in this reply I will focus on John 8:53-59 and that context.

    Carl said: You said that in “the context of John 8:53-59 the Jews asked Jesus “whom” He claimed to be and Jesus said before Abraham came into existence/born, I am.” Does the context of John 8:53-59 suggest that Jesus claimed to be God? It couldn’t be, since, according to the trinity doctrine, God is not a single person. Instead, he’s a “a unity of THREE [persons].” Jesus is only one person. So, tell me, what does the context of John 8:53-59 tell YOU? That a single person was claiming to be a three-person deity all by himself?

    My reply: Carl the problem is your are not addressing the points shared but you keep going off on wild accusations and misstating things. I have never cited that God is only 1 personage yet you continue to say things like that. Let’s focus back on what is going on in John 8:53-59.

    Previously those whom Jesus was talking with accused Him of having a demon, for Him saying that no one would taste death if they obeyed His words.

    Point – in verse 53 they asked Jesus are you greater than Abraham, the prophets? They ask Jesus, whom do you claim to be? These are direct questions!

    In verses 54-56 Jesus explains to them that He truly knows the Father, and they don’t! Jesus states that Abraham rejoiced in seeing His day, which was back in Genesis 12-17 which the LORD revealed Himself to Abraham.

    In verse 57 they are puzzled and don’t get what Jesus is saying. They bring up Jesus’ age stating He is not even 50 years of age and He has seen Abraham? Notice, they are looking at His age and confused about Abraham seeing Jesus based on what they asked Jesus previously about whom He claimed to be!

    Verse 58 Jesus nails it, Jesus said before Abraham came into existence, I am! From the Greek, “ego eimi”. “I Am”, “I am He”, references to the LORD’s identity in the Hebrew Scriptures, which the Jews would of understood. Jesus was claiming the identity of “I am” to them and they understood it, that is why they wanted to stone Jesus cause of blasphemy!

    “So the abuser of Jehovah’s name should be put to death without fail. The entire assembly should without fail pelt him with stones. The alien resident the same as the native should be put to death for his abusing the Name. (Leviticus 24:16 NWT)

    What reason according to the Torah, the Law, could the Jews have legitimate reason to want to kill Jesus? Blasphemy is the reason!

    So Carl, do you see that they wanted to know whom Jesus claimed to be and why they wanted to kill Jesus in these verses?

    Carl said: One other thing, according to you, Jesus used God’s name when he said “I AM” at John 8:58? Sorry, but “I AM” is a title; God’s name is Jehovah. As Ex. 3:15 says: “And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, JEHOVAH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

    My reply: I did not say Jesus used “I Am” as a name, you say I said that. The “I Am” can used as a title or name, which is a way of identification. According to Jewish Encyclopedia: “it denotes the eternal and everlasting existence of God, and that it is a composition of (meaning “a Being of the Past, the Present, and the Future”). The name Ehyeh () denotes His potency in the immediate future, and is part of Yhwh.” link

    The LORD is identified as “I am He”, “I am”, in numerous places throughout the Old Testament Scriptures, of which the Jews knew to be in reference to God. (Isaiah 41:4, 43:10, 48:12-16) That is why in John 8:53-59 it makes it so clear what Jesus meant and why they responded the way that they did.

    In Exodus 3:14-15 there is something really really cool. Literally in Exodus 3:14 with the reply to Moses, in the Hebrew it reads, “ehyeh” has sent me, which means “I AM”.

    So Carl, do you see how the title “ehyeh” is so important and why Jesus claimed this for Himself that people were unhappy and angry?

    Carl said: At Acts 3:13, he addressed a group of Jews, saying: “The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.” So, is Jesus the “God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? Or is he God’s Servant?

    My reply: Numerous places that is worded that way and there is nothing wrong with that. It states in Acts 2:32 that God raised Jesus, in Romans 6:3-4 it states the Father raised Jesus, in Romans 8:11 the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, and in John 2:19-21 that Jesus would raise Himself from the dead. Since the Bible teaches there is one God in nature from eternity without sin and is holy, and that there are three personages, this all goes together in harmony. Peter was making a statement of fact, not that it was only the Father whom raised Jesus. And with that being said in reference to the Father, once again showing how the Father and Jesus are identified together equally.

    Carl, who glorified and raised Jesus? Was it only the Father, God? Or was it the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, God?

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 9, 2012, 11:28 AM
  25. Carl and others here I need to make a comment. Carl in my replies to you, I have used the New World Translation NWT and cited also the Kingdom Interlinear Translation. The reason is because I believe you to be of the Jehovah’s Witnesses by the way you have replied, and you did not share in reply that I was wrong. I try to stay on the same page with people in what is used for resources. So if I am wrong, my apology on that, cause I wanted to use references in which you would believe to be accurate. That is the reason I have been using that in my comments.

    Kelly

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 9, 2012, 11:33 AM
  26. You still don’t get it because you don’t want to get it. Look very closely at what Karl Barth said that somehow went right passed your eyes without your seeing it. Concerning the trinity, he said:

    1. “The NT does NOT contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity.”

    2. “The Bible LACKS the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself.

    3. “The other express declaration is also LACKING, that God is God thus and only thus, i.e. as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

    4. [The Bible] also LACKS such terms as trinity.”

    REVIEW: In the words of Karl Barth, the Bible does NOT contain the developed doctrine of the trinity. The Bible says NOTHING about the Father, Son, and holy spirit being equal in essence, and that the three are equally God. The Bible says NOTHING of God consisting of the Father, Son, and holy spirit. The Bible does NOT even use the word “trinity,” which was coined by Tertullian.

    Karl Barth also says: “Homoousios [was] featured in the Creed of Nicea (325) to denote that Christ was of the same substance as the Father.” “Homoousios” is a term that means “one essence or substance.” Did you get that? The CATHOLIC CHURCH, not the Bible came up with that word and the concept that Father and Son are of the same divine “essence.” Concerning such words as “essence,” Catholic writer, John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899. So, according to Karl Barth, it was a Catholic creed, namely, the Creed of Nicea, that came up with such terms as essence. The Bible says nothing about Jesus and his Father as being one in essence.

    So, whether you go along with every Catholic teaching or not, the trinity doctrine, originated with Catholic creeds that were approved by the Church.

    Although Karl Barth acknowledged that “the Bible does NOT contain the developed doctrine of the trinity,” he still insists that the NT contains what he calls a “fixed, three-part [trinity] formula.” One of his proof texts is 2 Cor. 13:14. There, it says: “May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” Do you see a trinitarian “formula” here? Does the verse say that there are three co-equal persons who are each called God, but that make up the same God? No.

    Look again at 2 Cor. 13:14. Do you see three “persons” in that verse? Using trinitarian theology, let’s count them. “The Lord Jesus Christ.” (ONE PERSON.) “The Holy Spirit.” (ONE PERSON.) God. (THREE PERSONS, namely, Father, Son, and holy spirit). That’s a total of FIVE PERSONS! Doesn’t it look like that “three-point formula” is actually a “five-point formula”?

    Look at 2 Cor. 13:14 one last time. Is this verse REALLY speaking of ANY persons? NO! Instead, it’s speaking about QUALITIES. It’s speaking of “the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ (NOT Jesus Christ), the FELLOWSHIP of the holy spirit (NOT the holy spirit), and the LOVE of God (NOT God). So, do you see a trinity of persons at 2 Cor. 13:14? Absolutely not!

    Does 1 Cor. 12:4 contain a “three-point formula”? Does it say that three co-equal, co-eternal persons make up the same God? Not even close!

    And what about Matt. 28:19? Does it say that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the holy spirit is God, but that they all make up the same God? Again, not even close!

    Karl Barth concluded by saying: “Primitive Christianity did NOT have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early [CATHOLIC Church].” So, WHO came up with the explicit doctrine of the trinity since it was unheard of in primitive Christianity? It was the Catholic Church through its creeds.

    So, by quoting more from one of my reference sources against the trinity, you just made yourself look even worse. The trinity is not a Bible teaching. “The Bible LACKS the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself.”

    Posted by Carl | November 10, 2012, 2:30 AM
  27. “Are you even familiar with Arthur Weigall? Why would you cite a person who does not even believe in basic Christianity?”

    “Let me throw this question back at you. Since when was the trinity doctrine ever a part of basic Christianity from its beginning? The answer is NEVER! As was already mentioned: “Primitive Christianity did NOT have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early [CATHOLIC Church].”

    I don’t believe everything Arthur Weigail says, just like I don’t accept everything that Karl Barth said. But when it comes to the trinity, both men were correct that the Bible does not support a three-in-one deity. And of this late date, you can’t come up with a single scripture in support of the CATHOLIC trinity doctrine.

    <<>>

    “My reply: Carl, that was actually #2, not #4! Carl I cited Jude 1:4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ (NWT)

    “Carl is Jesus the “only” Lord? Is the Father not Lord? According to Jude 1:4 Jesus is the only Owner and Lord, that must mean the Father is not our Owner and Lord, right? What was the Greek’s culture during the days of the early church? Please reply to these things I have shared.”

    A proper understanding of the Bible would tell you how both God and his Son are both called Lord and how Jesus is our only Lord. Consider:

    Jehovah God is the “Lord of heaven and earth,” being the Universal Sovereign by reason of his Creatorship. (Matt. 11:25) Heavenly creatures speak of him as “Lord,” as reported at Revelation 11:15, which says: “Loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ.’”

    While Jesus Christ was on earth, persons besides his disciples called him “Lord,” or “Sir.” (Mt 8:2; Joh 4:11) In these cases the designation was primarily a title of respect or courtesy. However, to his apostles Jesus showed that calling him “Lord” involved more than this. Said he: “You address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and you speak rightly, for I am such.” (Joh 13:13) As his disciples, these apostles were his learners, or pupils. Thus he was their Lord, or Master. After Jesus’ death and resurrection, his title Lord took on greater significance. By means of his sacrificial death, he purchased his followers, this making him their Owner. So, it was proper for Jude to refer to Jesus as our only Owner and Lord.” (Jude 4)

    BTW, Jude 4 blows the top off the trinity doctrine, which says that “the Lord” is actually a combination of three persons, not just “our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.” As it says, the Father, Son, and the holy spirit “are not three Lords, but one Lord.” So, when you say the word “Lord,” who do you have in mind? One person or three?

    It’s late, so this is all I’m going to do now. I have yet to read your other replies. But will any of them include Bible verses that say that:

    1. “we worship one God in trinity”?
    2. “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the holy spirit is God. And yet, they are not three Gods, but one God”?
    3. “in this trinity, the whole three persons are co-eternal and co-equal”?
    4. “in this trinity, NONE is greater…”?

    That remains to be seen.

    Posted by Carl | November 10, 2012, 3:20 AM
  28. “Are you even familiar with Arthur Weigall? Why would you cite a person who does not even believe in basic Christianity?”

    “Let me throw this question back at you. Since when was the trinity doctrine ever a part of basic Christianity from its beginning? The answer is NEVER! As was already mentioned: “Primitive Christianity did NOT have an explicit doctrine of the trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds of the early [CATHOLIC] Church.”

    I don’t believe everything Arthur Weigail says, just like I don’t accept everything that Karl Barth said. But when it comes to the trinity, both men were correct that the Bible does not support a three-in-one deity. And of this late date, you can’t come up with a single scripture in support of the CATHOLIC trinity doctrine.

    Posted by Carl | November 10, 2012, 9:20 AM
  29. You did not address the context of John 5:18-23. Why did they want to kill Jesus? It seems in verse 18 that they were hearing Jesus claiming equality with the Father by calling Himself the Son. So how come Jesus did not correct their misunderstanding? How come Jesus did not reword His statements? How come Jesus said that all are to honor the Son “just as” they honor the Father? That would indicate that Jesus knew what they were believing and affirmed it even more! Please explain that.”

    No problem. As the one who started out his existence in heaven with his Father, Jehovah, Jesus knew the Hebrew Scriptures, including the passage where Jehovah asked a rhetorical question: “To whom will you compare me? Who is my equal? (Isa. 46:5) The obvious answer is: “No one.” As Universal Sovereign, as Lord of heaven and earth, as the Most High, no one is equal to Jehovah, not even Jesus. In Jesus’ own testimony, he declared that everything he owned was given to him by his Father, the “only true God.” (John 17:3) As Jesus said at John 3:35: “The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands.” Now, ask yourself, if Jesus were equal to his Father, what could his Father give him that he didn’t already own? Jesus even declared that he owed his existence. As he said at John 6:57: “I live because of the Father.” Would Jesus say such a thing if he were equal to his Father, Almighty God? NEVER!

    Now, back to John 5:18, where the Jewish religious leaders wanted to kill Jesus. But why? Was it because he called himself Almighty God? No. Among the two reasons the Jews wanted Jesus dead was that he “called God his Father, making himself equal with God.” Look closely at that sentence. Did the Jews want to kill Jesus because he declared himself to be God? Certainly not. They wanted him dead for claiming God was his Father. That is a far cry from saying that Jesus claimed to be God himself. Later on, the Jews made the SAME claim that God was their Father when they told Jesus: “We have one Father, God.” (John 8:41)

    Concerning the context of John 5:18-23, can you point out the verse where Jesus claimed equality with his Father. If you find it (which you won’t), how would you reconcile that verse with John 14:28 where Jesus said: “The Father is greater than I am.” Apparently, to you, Jesus was in the habit of contradicting himself. If the human Jesus was inferior to the angels, what could he possibly have said about being equal to his Father at the same time? (Heb. 2:9)

    Back to John 5:18. The other reason why the Jews wanted Jesus dead was because “he broke the Sabbath.” But did he? Absolutely not. Jesus was the only Jew to perfectly observe the Law of Moses. So, Jesus never broke the Law, neither did he try to make himself equal to God. (You tried to hide the fact that Jesus and God are different persons by re-wording it to say that the Jews felt that Jesus was making himself equal to God, NOT the Father, like you cleverly tried to put it. This verse and others clearly shows that God and the Father are one in the same person.

    According to you, Jesus didn’t correct the Jews’ misunderstanding that by calling God his Father, he was making himself equal to God. But, he DID correct them. At verse 19, he said: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does.” Tell me, would someone equal to God Almighty say: “I can do nothing by myself”? NEVER! Only an inferior would say that about his superior. Jesus also said that “he does only what he sees the Father doing.” Does Almighty God need to sse what someone else is doing to determine what he should do? No. So, at John 5:19, Jesus set his opponents straight that he was NOT making himself equal to God. And besides, the Hebrew Scriptures, which the religious leaders knew well, says that NO ONE is equal to God. (Isa. 46:5) And that included Jesus, who said: “The Father is greater than I am.” (John 14:28)

    “How come Jesus said that all are to honor the Son “just as” they honor the Father?”

    Easy. Jesus was God’s representative while he was on earth. To honor Jesus was to honor his Father who sent him. To disrespect Jesus was the same as disrespecting his Father who sent him. That in no way implied that Father and Son were equals. BTW, if God were a trinity, why didn’t Jesus say that all are to honor the Son just as they honor the Father AND the holy spirit? Do you think Jesus forgot to mention the holy spirit, that is, if it were a person?

    “That would indicate that Jesus knew what they were believing and affirmed it even more!”

    Jesus affirmed WHAT even more? That he was equal to God or that he was equal to his Father? The truth is that he did neither.

    You try and have things both ways. On one hand, you say that the human Jesus claimed to be equal with God. But on the other hand, you say that Jesus was not equal to God because he came to earth in the form of a man. It’s contradictions like that that inspire Muslims to scoff at all TRUE Christians, charging them with having conflictimg teachings.

    Posted by Carl | November 10, 2012, 9:22 AM
  30. Carl, Carl, Carl…

    You continue to make comments that are not directly in reference to what was shared. You quoted Karl Barth, find and dandy! The problem is that in that quote you first gave you cut a little piece out of it to willfully give a false presentation of what he said. If you read the sentences before it Karl did share there were elements that gave some reasoning for the Trinity doctrine. The point of his little sentence that you gave was there was no official statements of faith or creeds in the early church. Why? Cause they knew that Jesus was Deity, God come in the flesh, there was a Triune understanding of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. They knew that Jesus taught the Holy Spirit was a personage, which even Karl gave reference to the Holy Spirit being a “him” just a few sentences above. Point, your source for using Karl does nothing cause he is speaking two things, and you want to cite him? Talk about double talk when you accuse people like me in the Trinity perspective.

    Carl said: I don’t believe everything Arthur Weigail says, just like I don’t accept everything that Karl Barth said. But when it comes to the trinity, both men were correct that the Bible does not support a three-in-one deity.

    That is just silly and double talk. In other words you will accept anything he says as long as it is against the Trinity (or other things you don’t want to accept in the Bible) but if he taught that the New Testament had errors, that Jesus was not really born of a virgin, and that the resurrection is not accurate. How convenient!!! That is a bad witness and you should be ashamed to quote something willfully knowing that person teaches against the faith.

    Carl quoted: Jehovah God is the “Lord of heaven and earth,” being the Universal Sovereign by reason of his Creatorship. (Matt. 11:25) Heavenly creatures speak of him as “Lord,” as reported at Revelation 11:15, which says: “Loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: ‘The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord [Jehovah] and of his Christ.’”

    Notice I said “Carl quote”! This is not even your words, which I had the suspicion that you were of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and this proved it, or at least that you are somewhat associated with the. That quote is from “Insight to the Scriptures” vol. 2 pp.265-267 on topic of Lord. I have the two volume set myself and I also found it online. Here is the link to read the quote you posted as your own words!

    Carl again quoted: “You address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and you speak rightly, for I am such.” (Joh 13:13) As his disciples, these apostles were his learners, or pupils. Thus he was their Lord, or Master. After Jesus’ death and resurrection, his title Lord took on greater significance. By means of his sacrificial death, he purchased his followers, this making him their Owner.

    Carl, again puts this as if you said this, with no reference to the source! How truthful, that is really bad! This quote is also from the same source as cited above! Check the link and see! Carl I can handle you quoting the Watchtower for your beliefs, but at least give the reference to them so people know! I knew cause I have the resources which is what I suspected from the beginning with you.

    Carl in reference to John 5:18-23 I am going to post again what I shared and really encourage you to pay attention to what Jesus said and how He replied to them.

    Quote from me before:

    18 On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to ​YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that ​YOU​ may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him (NWT)

    Carl who is coming in Isaiah 9:6? “For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace” (NWT)

    Carl who is coming in Isaiah 40:3-5? “3 Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, ​YOU​ people! MAKE​ the highway for our God through the desert plain straight. 4 Let every valley be raised up, and every mountain and hill be made low. And the knobby ground must become level land, and the rugged ground a valley plain. 5 And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be revealed, and all flesh must see [it] together, for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken [it].” (NWT)

    Carl what did John the Baptist proclaim? “1 [The] beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ: 2 Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way;) 3 listen! someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, ​YOU​ people, make his roads straight,’” 4 John the baptizer turned up in the wilderness, preaching baptism [in symbol] of repentance for forgiveness of sins. 5 Consequently all the territory of Ju‧de′a and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem made their way out to him, and they were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather girdle around his loins, and was eating insect locusts and wild honey. 7 And he would preach, saying: “After me someone stronger than I am is coming; I am not fit to stoop and untie the laces of his sandals. 8 I baptized ​YOU​ with water, but he will baptize ​YOU​ with holy spirit.””

    Carl Jesus is the Son of God and the Jews understood what Jesus was stating in John 5:18 and Jesus continued to claim to be the Son of God, with the Father’s backing, authority and equality.

    Carl I have asked you many other things in other posts that you continue to not address and bring up new things for your so called proofs. As of right now this dialogue is done, but maybe it can continue another time with a changed attitude and if you learn how to address the points properly. The reason is because you are not being consistent with the discussion, you avoid things stated to you, you quote things making it appear it is you writing, which it is not. You cited sources that do not refute anything in context, and you ignore the points that were shared of those references showing how they are not accurate in how you posted it. And you cite people whom are not even people of the faith whom reject basic Christian tenants of the faith as a source only cause it goes with your view, and you openly stated it.

    I do hope you continue to search things out and that you come to a genuine saving faith in Jesus Christ as true Lord and Savior, whom died upon the cross and rose again so that you could have eternal life in Him and one day be in heaven. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

    Carl if you really care about truth I would encourage to check out this link which is an online book proving that the Watchtower has intentionally lied to people like you with their information and it shows the truth concerning their brochure called “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” Here is the link!

    Posted by Kelly Powers | November 10, 2012, 10:52 PM

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